"Royalist coat colours" Topic

In the interest of balance, following on from my recent post on Parliamentarian coat colours here's the Royalist coat colours. link

Anyone looking for citations please check the BCW Regimental Wiki as I have added my discoveries to their knowledge bank

Hi K,

Cracking work again! Just one minor point, Northampton's in green isn't at all secure, see the wiki page.

All the best Tim

Thanks Timbo, some strange formatting from my Word document to the blog. A few bits are missing. I shall reread and amend.

A couple of additions to the Wiki have been made.

Righteous work

martin

Great, thanks KYPD!

Just a question on the Tadcaster quote from Fairfax, would you have the text to hand? I remember seeing this ages ago but can't remember where yet.

Annoyingly contemporary writers often say eg 'the red regiment' which is more likely to refer to flags than coats, but sometimes refers to coats, causing much confusion, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Thank you very much.

Interesting; thanks for your work on this.

The Tadcaster quotation from the Fairfax Correspondence volume 2 (found here right at the end of the volume: link ) mentions only a black regiment and a red regiment, so this is yet another instance where we don't know if this refers to coat or flag colours, unfortunately.

The BCW Wiki says on Conyers Regiment (http://wiki.bcw-project.org/royalist/foot-regiments/cuthbert-conyers) "Coats, Flags & Equipment

Referring to the royalist attack on Tadcaster in Dec 1642, Fairfax 1) mentions that one of the two regiments involved in the assault had black coats: those regiments were Conyers's and the other, described as Newcastle's 'life guard ' wore red coats"

which by saying that these were the coat colours is probably assuming too much from that text – although the original does say that the red regiment "were the life-guard and choicest men".

Cheers,

David.

Thank you for your time and effort in putting that work together. Very helpful and most appreciated.

Timbo – I don't sorry. I have just realised that I referenced volume 1 on the BCW Regimental Wiki when I added the information. Will amend the reference to volume 2 presently.

Agreed most probably a reference to flags whoich would fit with Newcastle's and their red flags.

(Suffering from a bit too much with hayfever at the moment)

And thank you for the comments everyone

Thanks for the reference

Brilliant, thanks all. Certainly the black is more likely to be a flag than coat colour. Possibly this could be an extra snippet of evidence in favour of the red flags with white crosses for Newcastle's, which so far is just a deduction and not at all certain.

Can you give me the detailed reference in your webpage here, KYPD, when you say "Fairfax papers re: Pontefract"? ( link ) ;

"Marquis of Newcastle

White, Fairfax papers re: Pontefract state his bodyguard wore red coats"

Your note there suggests they were two completely separate units.

It's rather intriguing…

Thanks!

Cheers,

David.

P.S. Sorry to hear you are suffering from hayfever at the moment, KYPD.

David, with hindsight, and rereading the relevant bit of the Fairfax papers I have amended my page. (It's Volume 2 p421)

You are correct that the red regiment and black regiment are most likely references to flag colours. I misinterpreted my own brief notes.

However, as Newcastle's wife wanted the soldiers to wear red coats, it is always possible (with the slight vagueness of 'red regiment') that a company of the regiment acted as a lifeguard and could potentially have worn red coats. One only has to look at the confusion surrounding Manchester's regiment with red coats lined green, and green coats lined red.

Too many leaps of faith there though, the simple (and most likely) answer being 'red regiment' meaning a regiment with a red flag.

An interesting discussion. Thank you

Thanks, KYPD. It's a fascinating period but the references can be so annoyingly cryptic, can't they? We know as well that uniforms did not last so any reference to a coat colour (or flag colour, for that matter) may be to only a very limited period of the war. Your conjecture about a/the Life-Guard unit may well be correct but unless more evidence turns up (and county record offices, for instance, may well have material not yet examined) we cannot know, frustratingly.

Thanks for your work on this! Yes, it has been an interesting discussion… :-)

Cheers,

David.

A minor note, KYPD – I see on page 414-415 of volume 2 of the Fairfax Correspondence a reference to Captain Hotham's greycoats – 3 companies of foot from Hull (my home town!) later noted as increased to 5.

"And thus were the grey-coats first made known to us, who shortly after gained the character of exquisite plunderers" (they'd just wrecked the furniture in the Archbishop of York's castle of Cawood).

They are not listed in your Parliamentary foot regiments list; would it be worth adding them?

Cheers,

David.

Thank you David.

Always open to additional information.

Sir John's East Riding Trained Band Regiment appear in my unfinished entry on Trained Bands.

Ah right, thanks. I see the Trained Band noted on the BCW Wiki: link

That's a wonderfully detailed entry; lucky that the records have survived! :-)

Cheers,

David.

Thanks David, everyone's welcome to register and edit the BCW wiki (shameless plug!)

Thanks, Tim. I may well do so sometime in the near future – although in the face of the erudition shown on the Wiki I feel that I am merely a very bumbling amateur!

Cheers,

David.

David, you couldn't be any more bumbling than what I is, and Timbo lets me play with the wiki

I am sure you are being far too modest, KYPD!

Cheers,

David.

I'm as amateur as they come! One thing Im sure of is that the wiki has errors but my hope is that the wisdom of crowds will improve it.

I do check each edit for howlers and tidy up formatting etc but am still working through the backlog at the mo.

Amateur does not necessarily mean bad, of course; many amateurs do great things… :-)

If you would like some assistance with your backlog of editing, formatting, etc., Tim, and you think others can do it (I have been working on editing books for publication lately), I'd be willing to help. I do have a reasonable knowledge of, and library of books on, the ECW.

Cheers,

David.

Hi David,

Sure, the more the merrier!

By all means just have a go at whatever takes your fancy. I have an email alert set up so I can quickly check changes.

My usual modus operandi is to choose a book and work through it data mining salient points into the wiki, and my excel Battles file. So far I've got through about 1% of my ECW books, so there's plenty of scope for more. The British History Online has huge amounts of info on the Parliamentarians that is a great source too.

Regarding Newcastle's 'redcoats'. I've seen a Parliamentary reference somewhere relating to the siege of York(Wenham perhaps?) of a captured Royalist being described was wearing a red suit, and being one of Newcastle's men.

Now' since the majority of the garrison were of Newcastle's army , it would irrelevant to describe this captive as one of Newcastle's men, unless the reference was to the Marquis's own regiment/lifeguard? But there's still the question of the red flags.

4D that rings a bell for me too. But can't remember exactly where it is from. As for the phrase 'Newcastles man' it might refer to a member of his army, as opposed to a member of Rupert's army. But, as you say it could equally point to Newcastle's own Regiment.

I quite like the vagueness, makes me think, and want to read more. Although at times it would be nice to have some certainties once in a while.

The good thing about the wiki is that you can add this reference and discuss its relevance, electrons are cheap!

KYPD: apologies.' Newcastle's man' is my phrase. The incident took place sometime during the siege of York, when Rupert's Army was still some way off.

If (big 'if') Newcastle's own regiment/lifeguard DID have red coats//suits of clothes, it begs the question: exactly WHO were the Whitecoats that made the last stand on Marston Moor?

No need to apologise, I am aware of the quote, just can't place it at the moment.

Logic would say that Newcastle's are the white coated last stand men of Marston, probably with red flags. The mentions of Newcastles lambs, the number of flags belonging to one regiment taken at Marston (Newcastle's RoF being the logical fit).

But equally I have seen the notion that many regiments in Newcastle's army wore white, and Newcastle's whitecoats could equally refer to his army as opposed to just his regiment.

Agree with relevance of man in red coat, poses more questions than it provides answers. Would fit with the hypothesis of a red coated company acting as a bodyguard. But it is just that a hypothesis. Or it could simply be a man from the regiment who hasn't been issued a whitecoat yet (possibly joining from a different regiment)?

Mad Madge reportedly wanted the RoF to be dressed in red, cue anecdote "we'll dye our white coats red with the blood of our enemies". Having a personal guard has precedent – Essex had a company of 30 halberdiers (grey cassocks adorned with 180 silver and orange buttons), Aston had a small bodyguard of halberdiers when Governor of Oxford (this is mainly down to the fact that the citizens of Oxford hated him, and Aston was quick to pick a fight in the street). So a red coated lifeguard within the wider regiment isn't that much a leap of the imagination.

So much confusion. It's great. I actually quite like the question mark hanging over pretty much everything to do with the Civil Wars. An excuse for us to do what we want – and a button counter's worst nightmare.

Just to add an extra layer of uncertainty officers usually wore whatever they liked. So a redcoated officer does not mean the rank and file were similarly redcoated.

I found this in Wenham (p.60), noted by the Royalist Christopher Hildyard:

'…White-Coats of the Marquesse of Newcastles own Regiment..'

It refers to the action around the springing of the mine at the Manor Tower during the siege of York,and seems to point pretty conclusively to the notion that, indeed, Newcastle's own regiment wore white coats.

And, as Timbo suggests, the red suited prisoner may well have been an officer (I haven't found the reference to that yet).

BTW: are there references to the details of the regiments listed in the BCW wiki anywhere?

Thanks 4D

A lot of the references in the Wiki point to Peachey and Prince (ECW Flags vol 1). Peachey and Prince do have the citations, albeit in an older notation they are understandable. Peachey and Prince get a lot of their info from Old Robins Foot – the new version of this is fantastic.

The majority of the Royalist references relate to the Oxford issue of clothing, and the Aldbourne Chase Muster.

The more obscure sources for coat colours are usually specified on the wiki (for both sides). There are a handful that aren't.

I was particularly interested in the entries for Michael Welden's regiment of Parliamentary horse. Recruited in Northumberland and Durham (otherwise strongly Royalist), other than it's defeat by Montrose and Clavering in trying to relieve Morpeth Castle, I knew nothing about it.

Hi all,

As KYPD says most of the coat colour info is from Peachey and Prince, with some additions and the opportunity to discuss some of the contentious ones.

Weldon's really belonged to the Covenanters, almost as a mercenary regiment. Vandruske's Covenanter regiment was similar. Furgol and Reid are my main sources for the Scots.

Hi Tim,

Sorry to hijack the thread back to where I last popped in. I'll register by the end of May for the Wiki; I have graphics work to do on a book with a deadline of the end of May and I'd like to get that out of the way!

Cheers,

David.

No problem NB,

It's a hobby rather than a job after all 😊