Tango01 | 07 May 2020 10:35 p.m. PST |
"In John Ford's classic western film The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, the character Maxwell Scott describes one way of sorting facts and myth. "This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." That could be one way of explaining the most enduring story about one of America's most significant battlefield weapons, the M-1 Garand…" Main page link Amicalement Armand |
Keith Talent | 08 May 2020 1:52 a.m. PST |
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Patrick R | 08 May 2020 2:09 a.m. PST |
Here's my take on the myth. Some day Willie and Joe come across a dead comrade and notice his M1 is empty, or Willie hears Joe's M1 go ping and half a second later Joe's brains are scattered over half a Normandy field. They would figure the enemy had waited for the ping and they would tell that story and IIRC the people the government sent out to collect personal testimonies picked it up a few times and put in the books and it got in the history books. While the veterans went home and told their buddies at the Veteran's hall. And they retold that story "My buddy had his buddy's brains blown all over a field in Normandy because the Germans were listening to the ping of the M1." at every Veteran gathering for three quarters of a century until that story permeated into popular knowledge and nobody is going to question a veteran because they were there. Here's a thought experiment, you're Hans Jaschonek from Tirschenreuth, near the Czech border, you're in the Normandy Bocage with your trusty K98 and there is a platoon of Amis happily blazing away at your position about 50 yards away, one guy over there is an MG-42 ripping away and you're trying to listen to the ping of an M1 rifle, you have to pick up the sound, identify the source, which is trying their best to remain in as much cover/concealment as possible and then put a bullet through their head to scatter their brain all over the field behind him. Hans, mein Freund, I don't think you'll manage even if you tried hard. Most likely the MG-42 raked the enemy position and Joe's brains refused to give way. And then there is the really bothersome detail. The guys who might testify to the enemy picking them off weren't in a position to explain in detail what happened. It's that scene in the Longest Day, with the Paratrooper using his clicker, gets a response and is then gunned down by a German because his rifle made the same sound. How they heck do you know ??? There were hundreds of thousands of men in the field, so the odds that an isolated soldiers with an enemy close by who heard the ping took advantage is quite possible. For it to be a tactic the enemy used to pick out soldiers in combat is highly unlikely. |
Porthos | 08 May 2020 2:35 a.m. PST |
"It's that scene in the Longest Day, with the Paratrooper using his clicker, gets a response and is then gunned down by a German because his rifle made the same sound. How they heck do you know ???" Indeed. But the most peculiar thing about this scene is that the American clicks once and hears two clicks and then clicks AGAIN and hears two clicks AGAIN. How is thát possible ? The first two clicks mean that the German loads up a bullet, but then he seems to throw out that bullet and load another one ? |
Skarper | 08 May 2020 3:25 a.m. PST |
Myth – bloke on the range has a video on youtube that kills it dead. |
ScottWashburn | 08 May 2020 4:24 a.m. PST |
Clearly in a firefight involving a lot of soldiers hearing the ping is going to be nearly impossible and with all the other troops around one empty rifle isn't going to matter. Still, there must have been times when just a few soldiers would be involved in a fight. Two patrols encountering each other at night, or during a fight in a town where the opposing troopers are stalking each other and shots are relatively few. In those situations the ping might be easy to hear and an enemy might be able to take advantage of it. And tales of the few times it actually happened would quickly spread through the ranks. So, a 'fatal flaw' that the enemy routinely took advantage of? No, that's a myth. But did it ever happen at all? Probably so. |
Garde de Paris | 08 May 2020 5:21 a.m. PST |
Hello Patrick R. from Belgium! What do you know about Tirschenreuth in Bavaria, near the Czech Border? I lived in a hotel there for 19 month while in the US Army, 1956 and 57. You gave me quite a start with that post!@ GdeP |
Starfury Rider | 08 May 2020 6:03 a.m. PST |
It's a long time since I've seen The Longest Day, I seem to recall the US Paratrooper was shot twice in rapid succession, which made me think there was more than one German waiting for him, so one to work the bolt of his own rifle and others to fire. I do recall venturing onto YouTube a while ago as I wanted to understand the loading sequence for the M1 properly. There are scenes of the empty clip being ejected up and away. I don't recall the sound being overly loud, and as noted, if you can hear a 'ping' in a firefight and successfully target the location on that alone, you're a pretty gifted human being… Gary |
StoneMtnMinis | 08 May 2020 6:13 a.m. PST |
Never let reality ruin a good myth or a good movie. |
Major Mike | 08 May 2020 7:50 a.m. PST |
A recent conversation during training where I was the target. "I thought they where going to get me while I changed magazines (it was pitch black dark in a building and had a hung up round in the ejection port)". "No, they have learned the hard way there might be more than one person with a gun in a room or that the shooter has more than one gun and is trying to draw someone in". You might hear a "ping" of the clip ejecting, but to locate the exact source point would be very difficult and that shooter might have a buddy near by. |
SBminisguy | 08 May 2020 8:26 a.m. PST |
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Tgunner | 08 May 2020 8:56 a.m. PST |
I've had some fun with M1 before and it does make a distinct noise when it kicks out that last round. I guess if you have good hearing and you KNOW what to listen for then you have an advantage, but you had better take it quickly. A soldier can reload a Garand pretty quickly! |
Marc33594 | 08 May 2020 9:40 a.m. PST |
That was the video I remember too SBminisguy. Thanks for saving me having to track it down :) And, as the video mentions, extremely unlikely for the GI to be isolated without others near by. |
ColCampbell | 08 May 2020 10:11 a.m. PST |
While there is a "ping" when the clip is ejected from an M-1, in reality only the person firing that particular M-1 will hear it during a fire fight. Jim |
Wolfhag | 08 May 2020 11:28 a.m. PST |
While there is a "ping" when the clip is ejected from an M-1, in reality only the person firing that particular M-1 will hear it during a firefight. Not really, I shoot CMP matches with my M1 Garand and during rapid-fire we could have 20+ shooters on the line and I could still notice pings on either side of me. If you have a clip next to you you are reloaded in only seconds. Wolfhag |
Tango01 | 08 May 2020 12:33 p.m. PST |
Thanks!. Amicalement Armand
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Lee494 | 08 May 2020 4:21 p.m. PST |
Yes. Truth and myth. As many legends are. The M-1 clip made an audible PING. Picking that up on a cold still day with frozen ground would be possible. Picking it up on the soft sand and chaos of Omaha Beach not so likely. Depends on when and where you were. Cheers! |
Legion 4 | 09 May 2020 9:20 a.m. PST |
ColCampbell, Wolf & Lee that is the way I saw it. And I have fired an M1 a number of times. Most recently last Oct at a Rod & Gun Club rifle range. |
thomalley | 09 May 2020 1:26 p.m. PST |
Long time ago, but in ROTC we fired M-1. At 100 yds manning the targets we didn't hear it. |
Zephyr1 | 09 May 2020 9:44 p.m. PST |
" A soldier can reload a Garand pretty quickly!" Caje on the TV show Combat! was damn fast… ;-) |
14Bore | 10 May 2020 7:27 a.m. PST |
SBMinisguy got it before me, besides always assumed having done it after firing off dozens of rounds, lead flying everywhere your hearing is shot to Hell, and doubt a ping is noticeable. |
Wolfshanza | 10 May 2020 10:45 p.m. PST |
Have a couple of garands. There is a ping but you've reloaded so fast it really doesn't matter. Can't see it being a real threat ? |
Patrick R | 11 May 2020 1:13 a.m. PST |
I picked Tirschenreuth because I have an acquaintance who is from there. Nothing more. |