"Advice please" Topic
15 Posts
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StrontiumDog19 | 28 Apr 2020 12:51 p.m. PST |
Hi, I dabble in all sorts of periods with miniatures but Renaissance is new to me. I saw a documentary about the Swiss Guard's last stand against Lutheran mercenaries sacking Rome in 1527, which captured my imagination. I'd like to dive into the period generally but thought I'd use this encounter as a springboard. Is the Perry plastic box set of European Mercenaries a good one to start with both for this particular encounter and the wider period? How about the other Perry sets, Foot Knights and Mounted Men At Arms? What would be suitable for the Lutherans and which other ranges would any of you recommend generally? I live in the UK so I'm looking for stuff where international shipping and customs aren't a hindrance. Thanks to anyone who can give me a few pointers. |
BillyNM | 28 Apr 2020 1:19 p.m. PST |
The Perry range is better suited to the late 15th century rather than the early 16th. There are several metal ranges (I assume you want to do it in 28mm) but I think Warlord Games might do some plastic figures in their Italian Wars range. The Italian Wars is going through a bit of a wargaming boom at present so you should get lots of choice and advice from others. |
StrontiumDog19 | 28 Apr 2020 1:40 p.m. PST |
Thanks BillyNM, I did wonder about the Perry sets, I've got them for WotR primarily but wondered if they might be suitable for later on. I'd definitely consider smaller scales for this period though. |
Rich Bliss | 28 Apr 2020 6:13 p.m. PST |
Are you thinking about skirmishes or larger battles? In any event, in 1527, the Lutheran mercenaries are almost certainly Landsknechts. For figure sources, I recommend Old Glory (available from Old Glory UK) or TAG. |
StrontiumDog19 | 29 Apr 2020 1:25 a.m. PST |
Thanks Rich, just had a look at OG, who I'm quite a fan of, and their Italian Wars range looks like some of their best from the pictures. OG can be hit & miss but I generally like their figures. As for TAG, I've got some of their WW2 Germans which are excellent so I'll give those a look. Probably start out skirmish (I like the sound of the battle I mentioned, I imagine a lot of a smaller action street fighting) and work up to larger battles, maybe a smaller scale for the big battles, 10mm at the smallest, so that's something else to look into. The other issue is rules. Not keen on Warlord's rule sets, so not Pike & Shotte. Just had a look at Furioso' by Alternative Armies which sounds interesting but I'm fairly in the dark as to what else to look at. |
Rich Bliss | 29 Apr 2020 7:20 a.m. PST |
The Renaissance figures are one of OGs best lines. If you want skirmish to start, take a look at Pikeman's Lament. For larger battles I suggest looking at your favorite ancient rules. For the Italian Wars, the command arrangements were still pretty primitive and ancients rules work better than rules designed for later pike and shot periods. Personally, I'm using an (as yet unpublished) ancients set of rules by Frank Chadwick |
StrontiumDog19 | 30 Apr 2020 2:52 a.m. PST |
Thanks very much Rich. Would never have thought to use ancients rules – I've got Mortem et Gloriam and sure enough, I've gone to their army list page and there are complete lists for the Italian Wars, so no need to look for big battle rules. I'll have a look at Pikeman's Lament, I believe Osprey have a sale at the moment, maybe that'll be in it. Thanks again for your help. |
Puster | 30 Apr 2020 1:30 p.m. PST |
The "Lutheran mercenaries" where Landsknechts of the Imperial army, of Frundsbergs contingent to be precise. They were NOT Lutheran by any default, except that these soldiers where representatives of the southern German region where the lore of Luther was pretty popular. More hosted anti-papal feelings, though. Landsknechts indeed fought this particular engagement, but they formed only a third of the army that conquered Rome, the other thirds being Spanish and Italians (though the latter started out as a smaller contingent and became numerical stronger once Rome was occupied). 28mm-wise, you could use Steel Fist, Foundry, Artizan or the METAL minis of Warlord Games (the former Pro Gloria). The WG plastic sets contain a lot of fantasy elements that look unusual on historical minis, like bulged armour, strange helmets and short and strange pikes (or crossbows). They can be used as a starting point to mix your own contemporaries, though, especially when mixed with Perry sets (for Italian or French infantry of the era) or Steel Fist metal heads, and so offer a fine way to bulk out pike blocks or build other nations. As for the Swiss… the modern uniforms certainly do not represent their looks of 1527. Afaik there is no description, but most infanty of the 30ies looked a bit like the Landsknechts with national attributes. You will find a hundred contemporary images depicting Swiss and Landsknechts of the era. Massacring each other was, btw, not a specific feature of Rome, but rather a habit that the Swiss started in the war of 1499 – quarter was the exception rather then the rule when Landsknechts and Swiss met. Novara, Marignano, Bicocca or Pavia followed, and there were scores of smaller engagements with no prisoners taken. |
StrontiumDog19 | 30 Apr 2020 10:52 p.m. PST |
Thanks very much Puster. I thought the Warlord plastics looked like GW Empire troops but for cost they could bulk units out a bit. I like the look of Steel Fist, TAG also, who have quite a few Swiss and plenty of Spanish & Italian. |
Puster | 02 May 2020 3:48 a.m. PST |
TAG have fine miniatures, but their ranges are either for the late 15th/early 16th century around the first invasions or the very late Italian wars, around 1540-1550. The fashion in the 1515-32 looked different, especially for the Spanish and Swiss. The various images of Pavia are pretty good for "fashion of the day" , and do show Spanish, German and Swiss troops beside Italian, French and Spanish Gensdarmes. BTW: I advise you to use broom bristles cut to around 8cm for pikes you just need to find a broom with roughly round bristles, or dispose of the oval. When you replace the pikes of WG plastics and avoid some of the weired pieces (and all crossbows) they make a fine foundation for a pikeblock on the march and they DO mix well with the Perry parts, especially the heads (metal & plastic) and handguns (need a bit of cutting, though). When buildings Gensdarmes the Foundry series (also sculpted by the Perrys an age ago) is very fine, but has only one armoured hourse. They mix well with the Perry plastic horses, though. Eureka also has a fine range of Gensdarmes and Conquistadores, which work well for Spaniards though the horses are a bit on the smaller side, perhaps 80-90% of the other ranges. |
StrontiumDog19 | 03 May 2020 2:17 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the help again Puster, I'll have to try that tip for the pikes. Are there any books you could recommend on the subject. I'm looking for a decent general history of the period and then some more specific works. Looking for something affordable and readily available. I've looked online but it's always tricky knowing where to start on a new' period. I prefer hardbacks when it comes to history but sometimes cost wins out. I thought maybe the one by Christine Shaw might be a good start? |
Puster | 03 May 2020 3:58 p.m. PST |
"The Italian Wars" from Mallet & Shaw is a standard. Alas, it seems to be out of print and only available to moon prices (though I have seen a trend for brandnew books to come out in the 140+ range, like a work on the Imperial army drafted for the relieve of Neuss 1475, or a work on the English expedition to France 1544). It looks like Shaws single work is a rework of that one, then this is the book to go for a nice overview. Note also that the "Italian wars" where not the only interesting field of military development. Apart from the obvious global development the Portugese expeditions into the Indian ocean, and the Spanish conquest of the Americas we also have the Ottomans looming at the horizon, Scandinavia in unrest and of course Russian and Poland battling it out. link Take a look at that picture :-)
A fantastic book with impressive views into the inner workings of the Italian wars is Maurizio Arfaiolis "The black band of Giovanni" a misleading title as it tells the story of the "Black Band" AFTER Giovanni Medicis death in 1526, and follows this band and the Italian army towards Rome tracing the Imperials who commit the infamous Sacco, out of accident rather then design, and then trail and siege them at Naples. This books is, unlike the general work, available and, better yet, free to download: link The odd book on the "Sacco di Roma" as a climax of the Italian wars is recommended, though. Guiccardini, a contemporary diplomat, wrote a good book on it giving an inside perspective, and his brother wrote the famous "History of the Italy", both available in english translation somewhere. A classic, if written by Taylor with a good portion of contemporary sentiments in 1921, is "The art of war in Italy". link Biographies of the famours persons of the time, like "Maximilian", "Charles V", "Francis", "Henry VIII", "Ferdinand & Isabella", "Suleyman" can add political background, while Leonardo, the Borgias, Medicis, Fuggers, Michelangelo or Martin Luther will add cultural flair. Finally (for now) here is a PDF of a German master-thesis that collects a lot of contemporary Landsknechts (and Swiss) images. Its worth it just for the images: PDF link Delving deeper into specific campaigns is sometimes not easy, but worth it. I found out, for example, that the "Black Band" that fought for Francis at Marignano was active in Frisia (right were I live) during the Saxon feud just months before, and had been hired by the Duke of Geldern when that conflict went dormant to keep them occupied he donated them to Francis to support him and get them from his border. The other two thirds of Francis Landsknechts were previously assembled for a possible landing in England, to support the Yorkish case again. |
StrontiumDog19 | 03 May 2020 11:33 p.m. PST |
Thanks very much again Puster. There is a second edition of the Mallet & Shaw book, only in paperback but it looks like that will have to do. Great links there, how long must that painting of Orscha have taken?? I've downloaded the Black Band pdf, thanks for those links, very nice of you to take the time for all this. |
Puster | 05 May 2020 3:29 a.m. PST |
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JanissaryAga | 19 Jul 2020 10:29 a.m. PST |
Bit late to this discussion but Charles Oman's Art of War in the Sixteenth Century is another good starting point, although not all of the battle renditions he wrote are considered accurate by modern historians. Not malice on Oman's part, he was just dealing with limited source material. |
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