"Sails on triremes" Topic

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but triremes used sails for travelling from A to B, wind permitting. On the other hand oars were employed when the wind didn't allow sails to be used and also in battle.

Now, if that's the case wouldn't it be unrealistic to stick sails onto my Langton triremes? They didn't use them in combat after all. Then again, they look so pretty with them. It's the old question isn't it, realism against aesthetics.

Anybody got any opinions on what's best? Sails or no sails on the models?

That's why Langton sells their fleet packs (available at shows, or used to be) without masts and sails.

No sails for me, please.

Allen

I definitely don't put sails on my triremes. When mine are on the table they are fightin' not sailing around on some type of pleasure cruise.

My triremes are angry triremes. Ares triremes, they exist only to fight, fight, fight.

Of course the fact that the triremes I get don't come with sails makes it somewhat of an easier decision.

Sometimes squadrons were caught with their masts and sails still on board. The added weight put them at a serious tactical disadvantage.

But presumably they'd still unstep the masts before engaging even if caught with their sails up.

James

"…caught with their masts and sails still on board. The added weight put them at a serious disadvantage."

You make it sound like they would, if given the time, have heaved them overboard before battle commenced.

"…You make it sound like they would, if given the time, have heaved them overboard before battle commenced."

That raises an interesting question. If your ship was captured or destroyed, you would have no further use for the mast. Chuck the mast and winning the battle wouldn't be of much use…. well; One could always row home.

I put the sails on my ancient ships. They look a lot better, and you can put on them greek VVV 15mm shield transfers, and they look great

If given time they would leave the sails on land in their camps. ancient navies always had a camp on a beach. If they knew battle was imminent they would unload the rigging to lighten the ships for combat.

Thanks James – good to know that! I always wondered where the sails and masts "disappeared to", any useful under-the-deck hold space probably already being taken up with cargo, supplies, rowers and so on… not to mention the problems of manouevering a mast from upright position to tucked-away-under-the-deck position. Throwing it overboard (onto the beach this time) seems like a much more reasonable option.

Does this mean that players wargaming naval engagements should also include "camps" for their fleets in the same way that land warfare gamers would? Would these naval camps, like their army equivalents, also be prime targets for raiding, pillaging, setting on fire etc. (with, I suppose, the usual result of a drop in morale of the owning player's fleet)?

Static Tyrant said "Does this mean that players wargaming naval engagements should also include "camps" for their fleets in the same way that land warfare gamers would? Would these naval camps, like their army equivalents, also be prime targets for raiding, pillaging, setting on fire etc. (with, I suppose, the usual result of a drop in morale of the owning player's fleet)?"

This is an interesting idea but I have not included it in my "Corvus" rules. If you raid the shore your ships become static. Ships at halt tend to be extremley vulnerable in "Corvus". As far as I am aware, raiding the enemies camp on shore in during the battle did not tend to happen in sea battles of the ancient world.

Ships would not attack camps during battles but I recall at least one instance where ships were given support from troops on shore.

Roman Infantry nicked some boats and sailed out to help their fleet during the Pharsalus campaign IIRC.

As almost without exception Triremes operated and fought in coastal waters, a set of camp rules would not go amiss.

Pat

I have been thinking of a similar question for my small fleet of Viking ships (for 28mm WAB).

Despite the visual effect of colourful sails, as seen in Shieldwall, I am probably going to go for a mix of stepped masts with lowered yards, and unstepped masts.

The rationale is that, by the time that longships were in a situation where fighting was likely, the crews would at least have lowered the sails and, given more time, unstepped the masts, too.

However, stepped masts will reduce deck clutter compared to unstepped masts, and might be appropriate enough for land raids, where making a quick get-away could become critical.

Cheers,

Skeptic

"This is an interesting idea but I have not included it in my "Corvus" rules. If you raid the shore your ships become static. Ships at halt tend to be extremley vulnerable in "Corvus". As far as I am aware, raiding the enemies camp on shore in during the battle did not tend to happen in sea battles of the ancient world."

This is rather unfortunate. There is at least one case of a retreating Athenian general grabbing his enemies sails to prevent pursuit, and there are numerous battles involving dragging off ships beached at the camp, as well as the famous case of the destruction of the immortals at Salamis, which clearly took place during the main battle, and of course the standard defensive tactic of beaching prows out.

You've definitely put me off using your rules.

Robert

My gaming ships all have masts and sails. Not realistic but it gives a good surface to paint something to identify the ship. Needed under most rules that I have played.
x42

Correct me if I'm wrong, wooden masts tend to float do they not? Heaving them overboard and collecting them after batlle would make perfect sence. Using a sail on vessel meant for rowing, particularly a Trireme would render it less manouverable and unstable espcially in a cross-wind. Never forget that these men were sailors of extraordinary capability and would know how best to deal with most evenualities.

Juilan wrote:
This is an interesting idea but I have not included it in my "Corvus" rules. If you raid the shore your ships become static. Ships at halt tend to be extremley vulnerable in "Corvus". As far as I am aware, raiding the enemies camp on shore in during the battle did not tend to happen in sea battles of the ancient world.
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Ah, since you are here, perhaps you could answer a question about Corvus. I think it's the only one we had about this excellent set.

When a ship shoots at another, can both sides suffer ill effects if they lose by enough (assuming the target can shoot back)?

Hello Pyruse,

Thank you for your kind comment.

No, in Corvus shooting is strictly one way. Ships that can shoot only do only after their enemy have finished their movement turn. If you throw 1 when shooting and your enemy throws a 6 you don't need to worry about the scores.

Of course, during your own movement turn you might choose to move your ship out of line of fire…

Guys, the Athenians lost the Peloponnesian War because their navy was caught beached in camp and destroyed by the Spartan fleet.

@KK: Unfortunately, floating masts would have been something of an obstacle for the ships; they would have become water-logged; and sorting the masts out after the battle might have been something of a headache.

And then, there would have been the question of where to store the sails …

Plus the ships didn't have cranes – so probably the best that could be done with masts thrown overboard would be to tow them to shore and put them back on board from there.

IIRC triremes had smaller "boat sails" too tho, that could be quickly rigged from a bowsprit?

@AtheG: Perhaps so re. the bow sails, but they were probably nowhere near as efficient as the main sails, may not have been as flexible in terms of angles relative to the wind, and would have got in the way of ramming.

Yes they were certainly not as large nor as efficient as the mainsails, but they could be carried into battle without overly burdening the ship.

I think I read somewhere that they might have been useful for fleeing from battle??

Did not think that galley masts where that big. Besides, I don't think that anyone would throw them in front of the vessel but rather leave them behind. Throwing the mast overboard would be a desperate act, and I believe that having a mast handy to make an escape would be handy particularly if you had lost too may of you rowing crew.