"Swede salvo fire" Topic
9 Posts
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takeda333 | 08 Apr 2020 8:47 a.m. PST |
Were native Swede and color regts. the only units to salvo fire? Some say the German Merc with Gustav's army could not. Interested in the period thru Lutzen if that helps. Yes, I made this post in another thread…. sorry and thanks for your help and expertise. |
DFLange | 08 Apr 2020 6:40 p.m. PST |
I believe I read where all of Gustav's regular forces with his main army serving in the brigades, both Swedish and German, were trained to salvo fire. I don't think this would apply to brand new regiments or any allies. However, it will be interesting to see what others may have to say. |
Ryan T | 08 Apr 2020 8:17 p.m. PST |
There might be more to this question and it may be necessary to differentiate between the front three of six ranks firing and the doubling of the six ranks into three ranks before the salvo is fired. On page 99 of André Schürger‘s PhD dissertation, The Archaeology of the Battle of Lützen: An examination of 17th century military material culture (2015) he looks at Swedish fire tactics: "We do not know exactly how the Swedish brigade functioned in battle, but it was clearly an attack formation based on superior fire power. When attacking, the musketeers advanced to both sides of the 1st squadron's pike formation or passed in front of the pikes to a distance of 10m to 15m from the enemy. At that range, they fired two volleys, the first with first rank kneeling, second rank leaning forward, and the third rank standing erect. After firing, the first three ranks changed place with the next three ranks, which fired the same way. According to Monro one single volley, doubling ranks and firing as described above, was designed for its shock effect by detached musketeer companies on the wings against cavalry at the Battle of Breitenfeld, but this complicated manoeuvre was not performed by whole brigades, as often claimed." The last sentence is footnoted as follows: "Monro 1637, part II, 65, Engerisser 2007, 487. This tactic is also described by Watts (1632, 124) for the detached musketeer companies. Later, he assumed the same tactic for all Swedish infantry in Discipline (1632, part III, 26), although his source clearly stated that the Swedish detached musketeer companies doubled ranks against cavalry and not the Swedish infantry in general. Turner (1683, 237-238), although he served in the Swedish army in the 1630's, seems to have known Monro's and Watts' works, using similar sentences, and concluded from their statements rather than from his experience that this became Swedish standard infantry tactics. However, there is no proof for this and it seems unlikely that whole brigades performed this complicated manoeuvre, but it is often suggested." I'll go through more of my sources tomorrow and see whatever else I can find. |
takeda333 | 09 Apr 2020 2:12 a.m. PST |
Thank you so much for your time and help. Some of my sources suggest only the color regts can salvo and German Merc didn't. But when you look at the Lutzen ob the German Merc are in color brigades, ie black, white etc. and it's hard to know who is who. Again thank you for your help. |
DFLange | 09 Apr 2020 9:00 a.m. PST |
The key phrase in this is that "we do not know exactly how the Swedish brigade functioned in battle". Rather than looking backward it might be instructive to look forward. Swedish infantry practiced three rank salvo fire during the Great Northern War as part of their "Ga Pa" tactics.This could be definitely performed by infantry battalions, not just detachments. There was based on a revitalization of Gustavus Adolphus tactics during the previous Scanian Wars. There were TYW veterans still with the Swedish Army during that war. It seems that salvo fire was an intrinsic part of Swedish infantry tactics going back to Gustavus Adolphus. While there may not be any proof that entire brigades used those tactics there is no proof they did not or could not. Based on subsequent wars it was entirely probable that the basic maneuver units, be they brigades or battalions, were trained to do this. In a war game where the smallest unit of maneuver maybe a brigade or battalion you have to credit the tactic to that unit. It would require a degree of training which is why I confine it to only troops organized as Swedish Brigades, not independent German regiments or allies. |
Ryan T | 09 Apr 2020 1:51 p.m. PST |
Schürger's caution about not knowing "exactly how the Swedish brigade functioned in battle" appears more to refer to how the individual Squadrons maneuvered within the brigade. But I agree that the use of volley fire initially was limited to units trained in the Swedish Brigade tactics. At Breitenfeld this would thus exclude the Saxon allies. All of the Swedish army at Nördlingen was organized in brigades with the apparent exception of the Württemberg Defense Troops. But if a unit was sufficiently trained to operate as part of a brigade formation it arguably was well trained enough to use volley fire. And it would seem there were two forms of volleys, the first from the front three ranks followed by a second volley delivered by the rear three ranks and a bigger single volley from all six ranks after they had been converged into a three rank formation. It can also be argued the Swedes were not the only ones to use this system of firing, although when other armies adopted it is not clear. In his recent book The Armies of Philip IV of Spain, 1621-1665, Pierre Picouet lists on page 179 five different forms of fire used by the Spanish. The last one is described as: "Finally the triple rank volley fire, used firstly by the Swedish [*see note below], was achieved by advancing the rear ranks upon the front ranks while echeloning to the right. Triple rank volley fire was performed with the first rank kneeling, second rank stooping, and third rank standing. By 1640 most of the best troops used this firing tactic." * "It was popularized by the Swedish infantry in the Thirty Years' War, but other nations were probably using a similar firing system." |
takeda333 | 09 Apr 2020 3:43 p.m. PST |
Fascinating….. thank you all for your insight. This information really helps. Again thank you! |
Charge The Guns | 12 Apr 2020 2:29 a.m. PST |
Great discussion. I think it is also in Schürger‘s dissertation that he talks about the allied foot all using the Swedish Brigade formation at Lützen and I would therefore assume this meant that all of the Protestant formations at Lützen were using the same tactics including firepower. So, in wargames terms, if you're giving some benefit for Swedish Salvee, then I think that all of the allies should be allowed to use it by later 1632. |
takeda333 | 12 Apr 2020 9:32 a.m. PST |
I knew if I asked here I would get excellent answers…and I did. Thank you for your time and interest. BTW if anyone has house rules for salvo fire in Pikemen's Lament I would greatly interested in your findings. We play house rules version with lots of units. |
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