Korvessa | 29 Mar 2020 10:38 a.m. PST |
What kind of standards/flags do you use for your Macedonian army? Looking for ideas for: Companions, Thessalians & the Phalanx |
JJartist | 29 Mar 2020 11:40 a.m. PST |
Macedonian standards have few source references. For cavalry I use smaller "vexillum" style banners as you can see here, on this very old photo:
There is an ancient artifact from Pergamum that shows a vexillum standard for a phalanx with a sunburst design. Which is the basis for these banners:
This banner based on a Heracles design from the Sekunda Osprey has a more unique look- but is far more conjectural (as is the eagle hood ornament):
This standard is a bit later- for Eumenes with a "cult of Alexander" Diadochian theme:
Basically symbols that are unique to the type/territorial origins of the unit. Companion squadrons were organized based on territories initially, later they were brigaded with regional troops into new regiments. The initial territorial banners may have symbols related to their local gods and legends. Coins are a good source. Here a Thessalian coin shows a horse, which is a very suitable symbol for them!
One thing for sure is that dressing up your units with a standard makes them look nice on the game table. It is less certain that such banners were common, or used at all in the earlier period. |
JJartist | 29 Mar 2020 11:48 a.m. PST |
Link for Pergamene phalanx banner: TMP link |
Korvessa | 29 Mar 2020 3:08 p.m. PST |
Thanks Jeff I was hoping you would answer |
Swampster | 30 Mar 2020 1:47 a.m. PST |
Alexander's funeral carriage had a purple banner which either had a golden wreath design or it had a golden wreath on top (seems the Greek is ambiguous). P. |
BigRedBat | 30 Mar 2020 3:54 a.m. PST |
There's a good book that covers the little that is known. Macedonian War Machine by David Karunanithy. |
JJartist | 31 Mar 2020 10:40 a.m. PST |
"There's a good book that covers the little that is known. Macedonian War Machine by David Karunanithy." I second that!
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JJartist | 31 Mar 2020 10:46 a.m. PST |
"Alexander's funeral carriage had a purple banner which either had a golden wreath design or it had a golden wreath on top (seems the Greek is ambiguous)." Yes! The old ral partha banners have an embossed wreath. Still useful! Here's Don Effinger's phalanx with the Ral Partha banner. There was a vendor that sold them at conventions. I have one in progress, TBD.
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EvilBen | 31 Mar 2020 2:18 p.m. PST |
Alexander's funeral carriage had a purple banner which either had a golden wreath design or it had a golden wreath on top (seems the Greek is ambiguous). This is Diodorus Siculus 18.27.2, right? I think normally we'd translate φοινικὶς as a red cloth (a flag here), rather than purple, but ancient colour words are always hard. Same word's used for those Spartan cloaks, though, among other things. I presume the ambiguity is with the force of ἔχουσα "bearing". For my money it seems easiest to take it that the olive wreath design is on the flag, since it's hard to see how else the flag could hold or carry it. It could conceivably "enfold" it but that makes no sense in context given that the point is that the gold catches the sun and can be seen from miles away. So, like in Jeff's picture of the RP banner. Only bigger on the carriage, presumably. |
Swampster | 01 Apr 2020 3:35 p.m. PST |
φοινικὶς is a range of colours -"included all dark reds, from crimson to purple" – Lidell. The ambiguity is whether it should be χοινικίς instead, which would mean that it would apparently read something like "There was a base upon which rested a golden olive wreath." with no mention of a banner of any colour. My copy of Diodorus prefers the banner, but notes the alternative reading by Wilamowitz. |
EvilBen | 02 Apr 2020 8:39 a.m. PST |
Thanks, Swampster! With all the libraries closed I only have online texts without apparatuses. Yes, I see how χοινικίς could make sense, especially given its use in Demosthenes. That makes much more sense of the ambiguity. Is that reading in any of the manuscripts, or is it purely Wilamowitz's conjecture? In any case, change one letter and the flag disappears… And yes, colour words. But I think I'd still say that when φοῖνιξ and its derivatives are used adjectivally most of the things it describes seem more likely to be red than what I would understand as purple (the examples in the lexica seem to be things like fire, and cows…) But my colour vision is terrible so… Anyway. Thanks again! |
Swampster | 02 Apr 2020 10:40 a.m. PST |
I guessing the manuscript was fuzzy enough – and the handwriting unclear enough – that the kappa and chi could be mistaken. For the rest of the word to be pretty certain, I suppose it is not completely mouse nibbled :). My translation only attributes it to Wilamowitz with no further explanation. With the whole Greek approach to colours being different to ours anyway, it is indeed difficult to be categorical about what we might call it. I only used 'purple' as that was in the translation. link has quite nice summary, trying to equate the Greek palette with ours. To make matter worse, from the lexical examples, this colour would probably be a reddish-brown – chestnut perhaps – when applied to horses and cows. I think also other words for red seem to be applied to things we would call brown. All makes the work of the painter more awkward! |
JJartist | 02 Apr 2020 11:24 a.m. PST |
Thanks for those links. Very helpful! |
EvilBen | 02 Apr 2020 11:25 a.m. PST |
Thanks again. Sounds like it was just Wilamowitz, then: but it's a very clever suggestion, and the more I think about it the more I think he might have been right… I can't remember how many major manuscripts there are of Diodorus but I think there are enough that we presumably aren't relying on just one for this passage, and the mice won't have got to all of them. At least I'm reasonably sure that the earliest Paris one and the Florence one both have book 18, and at least one descendant each. In other circumstances I'd scuttle off and check. Thanks for that link, too: it's an interesting effort, and seems pretty sensible. As you say, φοινικὶς must include a pretty broad range of dark reds. Rather than awkward perhaps we ought to think of it as freedom to use the one we think looks best! I see that in the old Loeb (on Perseus) it's translated "red" for this passage but "purple" a few sections earlier… |
JJartist | 03 Apr 2020 10:13 a.m. PST |
The Murex color we get out of our local "Sea Hares" is deep magenta/purple in tone: link These could make a purple dye. The real shellfish that were used for Tyrian purple have vanished: link Just for reference: link Crimson color guides Spartan based on Kermes dye: link Kermes crimson: link
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