Tango01 | 27 Mar 2020 10:07 p.m. PST |
…history "On March 4 2011, the French historian Reynald Secher discovered documents in the National Archives in Paris confirming what he had known since the early 1980s: there had been a genocide during the French Revolution.1 Historians have always been aware of widespread resistance to the Revolution. But (with a few exceptions) they invariably characterize the rebellion in the Vendée (1793–95) as an abortive civil war rather than a genocide. In 1986, Secher published his initial findings in Le Génocide franco-français, a lightly revised version of his doctoral dissertation.2 This book sold well, but destroyed any chance he might have had for a university career. Secher was slandered by journalists and tenured academics for daring to question the official version of events that had taken place two centuries earlier.3 The Revolution has become a sacred creation myth for at least some of the French; they do not take kindly to blasphemers…" Main page link Amicalement Armand |
arthur1815 | 28 Mar 2020 3:36 a.m. PST |
Very interesting, Armand. Thank you for finding and posting. |
Jcfrog | 28 Mar 2020 3:42 a.m. PST |
Yes, ever since public omerta. Many people still praised and who havecstreet names were little polpots and totalitarians. When Lyon revolted against the " excesses" of the republic, the general sent to supress had to answer to the order to kill every one, destroy the city that he did not have the technical means or people to carry out the orders. He woukd have, if post 1900… As usual historical indignation is very selective and sanctified terrorists cannot be questiond. |
Ten Fingered Jack | 28 Mar 2020 5:42 a.m. PST |
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ReallySameSeneffeAsBefore | 28 Mar 2020 10:11 a.m. PST |
I don't know much about this- but I do know it has never been forgotten by the population of the Vendee. I have a friend whose wife is from that region of France. This subject isn't taught in schools, but everyone there knows about it in detail- all the particular massacres of priests, women, children etc. Apparently there are some first names, associated in the region with particularly murderous Republicans, which although common in other parts of France are virtually unknown in the Vendee. |
Tango01 | 28 Mar 2020 11:50 a.m. PST |
Glad you enjoyed it my friend!. (smile) Amicalement Armand
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Lilian | 28 Mar 2020 2:29 p.m. PST |
a total non-sense, the Vendée is not a race nor ethnic group different from rest of the French people, the Vendée is only a pure artificial administrative creation of 1790 dividing a province in 3 departments, the insurgents from "Vendée" as group did not even "match" with the department of the same name as they can come from others depts, nor the whole inhabitants of the Department as they can be also in the other Republican side… so stupid and sensationnalist, Mr Secher is very far to be recognized in his conclusions… next? Confederate genocide by Unionists, Spanish Republicans genocide by Franquists? |
Fanch du Leon | 28 Mar 2020 4:43 p.m. PST |
Good points Lilian. And moreover, this theory is founded on false 1st hand sources. The famous Westermann report after Savenay ("citizens there is no more Vendée(…)") is an hoax written by a royalist historian in le late 19th century. The real report can be consulted in the Army archives at Vincennes ans is quite different. By the way,Westermann, an ambitious officer, but whio didn't want to take command in the West, isn't "one of the Revolution's most celebrated soldiers", since he 's been sent to the guillotine in 1794 with Danton and didn't have time to do anything worth celebrating. And François Furet, a great historian, do not see the Vendean horrors as a genocide, as the text undersays it. |
Franck | 29 Mar 2020 3:07 a.m. PST |
Just another far-right insanity ! Tango, I usually appreciate (most of ) your posts here but please, after the 'Why Robespierre chose Terror' US conservative point of view, maybe you should let the French Revolution topic alone ? And by the way, the illustration is supposed to the massacres in Machecoul commited in march 1793 by the Vendean rebels before the beginning of the war. That's no excuse for the real atrocities the Republican made later but just to point the fact that excess existed from both sides. I do not mean to reduce the exactions of the Bleus but there was no ‘genocide' even if real horrible political calculations existed to ‘clean' the Vendee. That's just no genocide. That term is just far-right and anti republican propaganda. The sources used for the article speak by themselves : the cited writers are all rightists so-called historians or even notorious hard-right polemists. Biaised. La Championnère Memoires are worth reading if you can find it in English. |
Jcfrog | 29 Mar 2020 3:09 a.m. PST |
Difficult in France to get something not tainted by politics in this. Still now, and sadly even more nowadays with a minority trying too sucessfully to muzzle others opinions and even research. Furet was slanted left, as the vast majority of university types, a need to stay in. Genocide here as elsewhere is one of those sensational, emotional news word that has been overused and so debased. Organised large massacres. Yes they did and gave orders to do them. Not all who received it went far in obedience. There is little doubt about the 100000s that were killed. It was shocking back then as pretty much not in the western wrfare ways since 17 th century. Moreover it cannot be put too much on the unsavory spiral of violence that emerges from irregular guerilka war as the vendéens were not very bad with prisoners. Not like Spain. The retributions were not of anger or vengeance but of a deliberate will to eradicate. The mentality of this brand of revolutionaries, their actions and writings, paralel very much the same frame of mind in poor Russia 1917+. They killed nearly all the elected people they found too moderste. It gives you an idea of their version of freedoms. |
The Virtual Armchair General | 29 Mar 2020 11:33 a.m. PST |
Yes, "genocide" as a term is badly misused and, at least in the US, is a favorite accusation made by the Left. If the phrase "mass murder for political reasons" had been used (admittedly not as "punchy" and brief as "genocide"), the premise could stand on its own. Maybe the language needs to create such a word? TVAG |
The Last Conformist | 31 Mar 2020 5:53 a.m. PST |
Rummel coined "democide" for deliberate mass killings whether they qualify as genocide or not (but excluding combat deaths). |