OldReliable1862 | 15 Mar 2020 11:53 a.m. PST |
Recently I've been looking into the Prussian army of the Napoleonic Wars, and I'm suddenly interested in the landwehr units. While they're usually dismissed as a poor cousin to the regular units, I'd like to ask: was their performance really so bad? |
14Bore | 15 Mar 2020 12:03 p.m. PST |
As a Prussian aficionado everything I read they managed, many melted away but they did stay often enough. |
Esquire | 15 Mar 2020 1:04 p.m. PST |
Listening to the experts and looking at the results in the field, the answer is "it depends." By 1814 it is my understanding that some Prussian reserve and landwehr were as good as or better than French line -- recognizing that the quality of the French line had deteriorated. Certainly early in 1813 the quality would be low. But if I am gaming my Prussians in latter part of 1813 or certainly in 1814, placing some units as standard as compared to a rating of "recruit" or "conscript" is not only OK but likely historical. As time went on, these units gained experience and as I understand better equipment. |
rmaker | 15 Mar 2020 1:21 p.m. PST |
A lot like ACW Volunteers – could be great, could be abysmal, could vary from battle to battle for a given unit. |
OldReliable1862 | 15 Mar 2020 1:27 p.m. PST |
A lot like ACW Volunteers – could be great, could be abysmal, could vary from battle to battle for a given unit. I find the ACW (and many American wars from 1754-1898) an interesting conflict is that they were in essence a war fought almost entirely by landwehr. |
Jcfrog | 15 Mar 2020 1:29 p.m. PST |
Once the ones who are unreliable went away, thise who srayed would be of a better stock. Then experience woukd tell too. Different ratings Spring and late Summer 13… |
ColCampbell | 15 Mar 2020 2:00 p.m. PST |
Yes, the more battlefield and campaign experience a unit received, the better it got. After the 1813 armistice, many of the Landwehr units in the III Korps and I Korps were just as good as the regular line infantry. By Leipzig, they were all that good. But the ones that were kept back blockading or besieging French garrisons in western Prussia and Poland weren't so good. Jim |
McLaddie | 15 Mar 2020 2:51 p.m. PST |
I find the ACW (and many American wars from 1754-1898) an interesting conflict is that they were in essence a war fought almost entirely by landwehr. Well, the Prussian Landwehr, and the Austrian and Russian for that matter, all worked out pretty much as ColCampbell notes. |
14Bore | 15 Mar 2020 4:27 p.m. PST |
Know the weaker units and last scraped together were the ones laying sieges so of course they were the most poorer. Also in my readings some Silesian units were Catholic and being the latest Prussians were susceptible to desertion. |
Desert Rat | 15 Mar 2020 6:14 p.m. PST |
I read somewhere that the staff were concerned about the Landwehr's performance in battle at the start of the Autumn 1813 campaign, however many units performed well in battle with great bravery. The biggest problem was with straggling on the approach marches to the battle as they were not used to the marching as the regulars were. Consequently, this was the cause for headaches in the staff! |
OldReliable1862 | 15 Mar 2020 6:27 p.m. PST |
On a somewhat unrelated note, does anyone know what the HQ cities were for the Kurmark landwehr? Napoleon.org has them for the Westphalian landwehr, but not the other provinces. I think the 1st Kurmark was headquartered in Berlin, but I don't know where the others were from. |
SHaT1984 | 15 Mar 2020 6:30 p.m. PST |
>>Certainly early in 1813 the quality would be low. ?? Really?? So the 'krumper' system or whatever it was called since 1808/09? of training reservists was completely useless then?? Not my understanding, but then I'm just a foaming Francophile… d |
McLaddie | 15 Mar 2020 8:13 p.m. PST |
So the 'krumper' system or whatever it was called since 1808/09? of training reservists was completely useless then?? No, but the numbers and quality produced by the system were uneven, and like any units in combat for the first time, an unknowned. Some did perform well, but that was true of the other landwehr and militia of the period. |
14Bore | 16 Mar 2020 1:42 a.m. PST |
I think I have a booklet from " you know who" that tells where Landwehr regiments were formed but no time right now |
Garde de Paris | 16 Mar 2020 8:22 a.m. PST |
Can you all comment on the Prussian Reserve units? Weren't they the first called up – mostly of men who had already served for one year, and then been discharged? GdeP |
Mserafin | 16 Mar 2020 8:40 a.m. PST |
The "Krumper" system provided manpower for the reserve regiments, not the Landwehr. These were called up before the Landwehr, and I believe they participated in the spring campaign of 1813. The Landwehr didn't show up in large numbers until the fall. |
14Bore | 16 Mar 2020 1:01 p.m. PST |
Kurmark 1st, 1st Demmin, Randow, 2nd/1st Uckermark, Randow 1st/ 2nd Anklam, 2,3 of 2nd Unkermark, 4th also Oberbarnim 1st of 3rd Lebus, Frankfurt, 2nd Berlin, 3rd Niederbarnim, Havelland, 4th Lebus, Ober & Niederbarnim 4th Berlin 1st of 5th Postdam, Brandenburg, 2nd Havelland, 3rd Jerichow, Ziesar, 4th Jerichow 1st and 2nd 6th Priegnitz, 3rd Priegnitz and Ruppin 4th of 6th Neu-Ruppin, Glien- Loewenberg 1st of 7th Zauche, Luckenwalde, 2nd Teltow, 3rd Beeskow, Storkow and 4th Cotbus. Can do cavalry also but its another long list. |
OldReliable1862 | 16 Mar 2020 1:05 p.m. PST |
14Bore – thank you so much, this is greatly helpful to me. Do you know anything about how landwehr officers were selected, or how they were assigned to specific units? |
14Bore | 16 Mar 2020 2:01 p.m. PST |
It has that also, though I have seen some change around, battalion commander might go to the regiment later or maybe kia or wia or sick leave. 1st Regiment v.Kleist 1st Bat Kapt v. Dullack 2nd Bat Maj v. Kloeden 2nd Regiment Oberstlt v Sydow later ad interim Oberstlt v Lorch 1st bat Kapt v. closters 2nd bat Maj v. Schuckmann 3rd bat Maj v. Stingel 4th bat Oberstlt v. Lorch 3rd regiment Maj v Marwitz 1st bat Maj v. Zschueschen 2nd bat Maj v. Halmann 3rd bat Kapt v. Laviere 4th bat Maj v. Bornstedt 4th Regt Oberstlt Boguslawsky 1st bat Maj v. Grolmann 2nd bat Maj v. Liewen 3rd bat Maj v. Schwerin 4th bat Maj v. Borstell 5th Regt Maj v. Bredow 1st bat Maj v Treskow 2nd bat Maj v Kaminsky 3rd bat Maj v May 4th bat Maj v Mallersky 6th Regt Maj v Rohr 1st bat Maj v Kleist 2nd bat Maj v Streit 3rd bat Maj v Delitz 4th bat Maj v Woisky 7th Regt Oberstlt Bismarck 1st bat Maj v Held 2nd bat Maj v Ozorowsky 3rd bat Maj v Diezelski 4th bat Maj v der Luebken |
14Bore | 16 Mar 2020 2:05 p.m. PST |
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Prince of Essling | 16 Mar 2020 2:10 p.m. PST |
Page 2 of the Napoleonic Association book "Prussian Landwehr & Landsturm 1813-15" by Peter A. Hofschroer says: "One of the most radical reforms that affected the Landwehr was the way of choosing officers and sargeants. A measure of democracy was introduced which today still does not exist in many modern armies – sargeants were chosen by the men through election; the 'Landtag' selected the junior officers to the level of company leader subject to royal reservation, and could also make choices and recommendations for the nomination of higher-ranking officers. However, during the armistice, the officer corps was purged of unsuitable elements and young men from the 'freiwillige jaeger' were promoted to officers in the Landwehr." Note: Landtag = provincial parliament. |
14Bore | 16 Mar 2020 2:17 p.m. PST |
A order AKO of 11/19/1813 reduced regiments to 3 battalions ( I still use the 4 battion model for my troops) the 4th becoming reserve for the others. 1/19/1814 |
14Bore | 16 Mar 2020 2:38 p.m. PST |
Just for gaming purposes, Empire ranks Silesian Regiments as Conscripts and the rest of the Landwehr as Landwehr, I kind of think the Silesians shouldn't be a step ahead.I also started a record system of games to reward exceptional or demote poor performance. I set up my Prussian army on that booklet by " He who shall not be named, 1,2, 3 corp and garde. The mixed corps are fun to work with including the little company of foot jagers in Holbe's cavalry regiment. |
OldReliable1862 | 16 Mar 2020 3:07 p.m. PST |
"He who shall not be named" – Hofschröer? I know the guy has an axe to grind against Wellington and the Brits, but he's one of the most knowledgeable people around on the Prussian army. Thank you very much for the information, much appreciated. |
14Bore | 16 Mar 2020 4:22 p.m. PST |
Have a couple of his books LoL, as said without him I wouldn't have a clear goal. |
Robert le Diable | 16 Mar 2020 5:24 p.m. PST |
Would the [limited] electoral system re. landwehr have been at all influenced by the practice of the Republican Army of France? The Corps system seems to have been adopted to varying degrees by other Continental armies, or has that view been revised in the light of more recent scholarship? |
14Bore | 17 Mar 2020 2:16 a.m. PST |
Somewhere have read a artical on how the Prussian Landwehr system was used after the war, sure its not on my tablet. |
von Winterfeldt | 17 Mar 2020 4:05 a.m. PST |
don't forget that the Austrians already created a Landwehr in 1805 and 1809 and in Germany there existed already semi official Landaufgebot – where "civilians" could be called to arms to support the army. Otherwise, yes in autumn 1813 the Prussian Landwehr was a force to be reckoned with – not without any reason the even formed a third in the fighting corps, certainly not worse than French conscripts of that time. |
McLaddie | 17 Mar 2020 5:51 p.m. PST |
The "Krumper" system provided manpower for the reserve regiments, not the Landwehr. Mserafin: Yep. Thank you for the clarification. I wasn't clear in my answer…I was trying to say that any untried unit, whether Reservists or Landwehr were going to produce uneven results when first engaged. |
Franck | 18 Mar 2020 1:33 a.m. PST |
No need to discuss about the different ratings for « spring and late summer 1813 ». The fact is there are virtually no Landwehr units at all in the field army before the end of the armistice just because they are not organised yet. The Krumper system worked very well – see the Prussian line performance as early as Lützen and Bautzen. But only line troops and reserve infantry were trained in that system. Landwehr troops are emergency levies. So no Landwehr in battle before august 1813 and then the mass of them are just « conscripts » at the best. Landwehr infantry has its best hours in the following autumn campaign at Gross Beeren and Dennewitz. And Leipzig too, where they surely were very motivated. But we must not forget that they easily disbanded (like at Hagelsberg where they only won thanks to their higher number). At Goldberg, 1600 Landwehr took part to the battle – half of them are lost that day. At the end of august, Horn's Brigade only had a hundred men left for each of its 8 Landwehr battalions (2 Silesian regiments)for more than 4000 3 weeks before. After Dresden and Kulm, Kleist just had 7 battalions left instead of 16 at the beginning of august and half of its Ldw cavalry. More than 6000 of these militia men are lost in less than 2 weeks and he simply ask the King to remove those troops from his corps. Please note these numbers are from French author Chareton (1903)and have to be taken with care but their fragility remains a fact. It surely seems reasonable to rate them better in 1814 than in 1813. But I'm not sure they were very good either. Surely they are better trained and the fews still in the ranks undoubtedly are the creme of the Landwehr but 1- they were not fighting in their home land anymore and 2- there were very few of them in 1814 for the campaign in France ! Some more exemples : According to Colin, at Montmirail each brigade in the 1. Armeecorps count 3 to 3500 infantry men. 1st Brigade had 4 grenadiers + 6 Landwehr battalions 2nd Brigade – 6 inf + 3 Landwehr battalions 7th Brigade – 3 inf + 6 Landwehr battalions 8th Brigade – 6 inf/Reserve + 3 Landwehr battalions I already suspect the Ldw battalions were melted together for a long time. According to Dammitz and Plotho there were no Landwehr infantery left in Kleist's 2nd Corps at Vauchamps. They must have been left for the besieging of French occupied fortresses in Germany and the north of France. Weil tell us Blücher reorganised his Prussian troops after the ‘6 Days Campaign'. In the 1st Army Corps, 14 landwehr battalions are melted in 4 (and 18 line inf battalions melted in 12, 600 men each). A few days later, the 2nd Corps is also and there still are no landwehr battalions at all. Some Landwehr under Jagow are supposed to join the Silesian Army mid-march but they are routed with Saint-Priest's Corps in Reims. I doubt a lot of them join the field army after that. The ‘real' Prussian Landwehr is (of course) the best one. Silesian Landwehr is mainly from Polish ascent and not motivated at all. In 1815 Westphalian Landwehr is not very reliable neither. |
4th Cuirassier | 18 Mar 2020 10:53 a.m. PST |
This discussion brings up an interesting point, which is that there are militia and there are militia. There could perhaps have been some variation in quality between standing militia such as Britain's and America's, and emergency levies such as the Russian opolchenie and the early Landwehr. |
Brechtel198 | 18 Mar 2020 10:56 a.m. PST |
In the United States I believe the term was 'volunteer militia' which were uniformed and at least basically trained. They were usually a notch or two better than the run of the mill American militia. For example, it was the Maryland volunteer militia that fought the successful delaying action at North Point outside of Baltimore in 1814 where British General Ross managed to get himself killed. |
Brechtel198 | 19 Mar 2020 8:05 a.m. PST |
Please note these numbers are from French author Chareton (1903)and have to be taken with care but their fragility remains a fact. Do you have a title for the work? |
Prince of Essling | 19 Mar 2020 10:17 a.m. PST |
I believe the work is: Comment la Prusse a préparé sa revanche. La Réforme militaire, les levées de 1813 et la légende des volontaires prussiens, la politique prussienne et l'unité allemande, 1806-1813 / Capitaine V. Chareton Author : Chareton, Jean Veye (1869-1915). Auteur du texte Publisher : (Paris) Publication date : 1903 link |
von Winterfeldt | 19 Mar 2020 10:45 a.m. PST |
Thanks one of the best series of books would be, edited by the Großen Generalstab, Kriegsgeschichtliche Abteilung II, Das Preußische Heer im Jahre 1813, second volume and the third one, – which would cover that autum campaign 1813 and 1814/15. Unfortunately only volume 2 for download which gives only the introduction of the Landwehr, Jäger and diverse Freicorps. |
Brechtel198 | 19 Mar 2020 11:37 a.m. PST |
Excellent information on the Krumper System and the Prussian Landwehr can be found in Prussian Military Reforms 1786-1813 by William Shanahan. |
Brechtel198 | 19 Mar 2020 11:38 a.m. PST |
I believe the work is: Comment la Prusse a préparé sa revanche. La Réforme militaire, les levées de 1813 et la légende des volontaires prussiens, la politique prussienne et l'unité allemande, 1806-1813 / Capitaine V. Chareton Author : Chareton, Jean Veye (1869-1915). Auteur du texte Publisher : (Paris) Publication date : 1903 Thanks very much. I found the book and ordered it from Abebooks. |
von Winterfeldt | 19 Mar 2020 11:44 a.m. PST |
Also there is a huge series in the Militär Wochenblatt about the Landwehr of different provinces, like East Prussia, Silesia etc. |
Prince of Essling | 19 Mar 2020 1:43 p.m. PST |
Also various articles scattered in "Zeitschrift Fur Heereskunde" (and on the Reserve Infanterie) |
Brechtel198 | 19 Mar 2020 3:32 p.m. PST |
Shanahan has tables on the Prussian Army and Landwehr that are quite informative. If anyone is interested, I'll post the data. |
14Bore | 19 Mar 2020 3:58 p.m. PST |
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14Bore | 19 Mar 2020 3:58 p.m. PST |
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SHaT1984 | 19 Mar 2020 3:59 p.m. PST |
The "Krumper" system provided manpower for the reserve regiments, not the Landwehr.Mserafin: Yep. Thank you for the clarification. I wasn't clear in my answer…I was trying to say that any untried unit, whether Reservists or Landwehr were going to produce uneven results when first engaged. Which is what I posited in my post (not having researched anything Prussian for 20 years). There had to have been 'trickle down' of experience/ training from 'Reservists' to Landwehr as additional training manpower was needed. They all couldn't/ wouldn't have been taken from the line troops. Good to see broad agreement on the subject. And here we see notes on the motivation or lack thereof of various 'cultural' areas. A name does not an army make. regards d |
OldReliable1862 | 19 Mar 2020 6:21 p.m. PST |
14Bore – thank you for the list of officers, but I was originally trying to ask how an officer was assigned to a regiment in Prussia – I just worded my question badly. |
14Bore | 20 Mar 2020 4:38 a.m. PST |
Oh well then should have asked better, but a least glad you didn't ask for Silesians. Most were retired or former officers, another big percentage were government officials or land gentry. Don't think in the beginning it was election positions. |
Oliver Schmidt | 20 Mar 2020 5:34 a.m. PST |
The February 1813 regulation about the organisation of the Landwehr said (§. 8) that company officers were to be selected by the districts "from the totality of the people". Their rank was to be considered only temporarily, until the king approved each assignment. All battalion and higher officers were appointed by the king, but he was ready to take into consideration proposals by the districts. link |
Brechtel198 | 20 Mar 2020 5:48 a.m. PST |
From Shanahan, pages 218-222: Strength of the Prussian Regular Army in June 1813: Infantry: Line: 40,891 Reserve: 29,637 Ersatz: 11,414 Foreigners: 6,468 Garrison: 20,422 Volunteers: 4,549 Total: 113,381 Cavalry: Line: 12,020 Provincials: 1,351 Volunteers: 2,416 Depot Squadrons: 3,461 Total: 19,248 Artillery: 16,187 Pioneers: 1,305 Landwehr by Province, Summer 1813: Lithuania, East and West Prussia to the Vistula: 20,000 Prussia west of the Vistula: 6,620 Silesia: 49,974 New Mark: 7,941 Electoral Mark Brandenburg: 20,560 Pomerania: 15,409 Total: 120,504 'Throughout the summer of 1813 men in every province were conscripted for the Landwehr with a vigor that often equaled the harsh recruiting of native subjects during the Seven Years' War.'-Shanahan, 218. Landwehr Troops as Reorganized on 27 July 1813: East Prussia: 5 infantry and 5 cavalry regiments (20 battalions; 16 squadrons). West Prussia: 3 infantry and 3 cavalry regiments (11 battalions; 9 squadrons). Pomerania: 3 infantry and 3 cavalry regiments (12 battalions; 12 squadrons). New Mark: 3 infantry and 2 cavalry regiments (12 battalions; 8 squadrons). Electoral Mark: 7 infantry and 7 cavalry regiments (26 battalions; 28 squadrons). Silesia: 17 infantry and 10 cavalry regiments (68 battalions; 40 squadrons). Prussian Army Strength on 10 August 1813: Infantry Battalions: Line: 90 (72,130) Reserve/Garrison: 39 (31,838) Jager and Foreigners: 8 (11,153) Landwehr: 151 (109,120) Total: 224,241 Cavalry Squadrons: Line and National Cavalry Regiments: 89 (13,375) Reserve: 22 (3,389) Jager and Foreigners: 23 (3,064) Landwehr: 113 (10,952) Total: 30,780 Artillery: 50.5 batteries: 8,749 33 companies (siege and fortress) 6,566 Total 15,315 Engineers: Field Pioneer Companies: 7 (567) Fortress Pioneer Companies 6 (738) Total 1,305 Grand Total: 271,641 of which 120,072 were Landwehr Prussian Organization on 10 August 1813 (the end of the armistice): Royal Guard: 6.5 battalions, 8 squadrons, 2 batteries, 16 guns (7,091) I Corps: 45 battalions, 44 squadrons, 13 batteries, 104 guns (38,484) II Corps: 41 battalions, 44 squadrons, 14 batteries, 112 guns (37,816) III Corps: 40.5 battalions, 42 squadrons, 10 batteries, 80 guns (41,135) IV Corps: 48.5 battalions, 29.25 squadrons, 4 batteries, 32 guns (33,170) Field Troops at Wallmoden: 4.25 battalions, 7 squadrons, 1 battery, 8 guns (4,068) Totals: 185.75 infantry battalions, 174.25 cavalry squadrons, 44 batteries, 352 guns (161,764) 'The field troops, except the cavalry and infantry of the Royal Guard which had a separate organization, formed four army corps. Line troops were distributed through three of these, while the fourth, apart from the artillery, was made up entirely of reserve and Landwehr material. Each corps consisted of four brigades, and each brigade was made up of one regiment of line infantry, one regiment of reserve infantry, one regiment of Landwehr infantry, one regiment of cavalry and one battery. In reserve were twenty to twenty-eight squadrons of cavalry and two or more batteries. The troops not held in reserve were used in the four siege corps which reduced the French fortresses.' 'Included in these totals were the Jager detachments and the six pioneer companies, distributed two to each of the first three army corps. The four siege corps included 43 battalions, 22 squadrons, 6 batteries, and one pioneer company, a total of 30,670 men and 48 guns. There were in additionto these effectives 80,368 Landwehr troops still in training, formation, or serving as garrisons"-Shanahan, 222. |
ReallySameSeneffeAsBefore | 22 Mar 2020 3:26 p.m. PST |
Wargaming-wise I recall an 1814 game at the original Wargames Holiday Centre under the late great Peter Gilder in the 1980s. Most of the French were rated '2nd class line' except for the Young Guard who were rated 'Veteran' not because they were veteran in the usual sense but because of exceptional motivation and leadership. However, many of the Prussian Landwehr units were also upgraded for the game- from 'Militia' to 2nd class or even 1st class line to reflect their bitterly gained skill and determination. Just shows that a degree of judgement and detailed knowledge is required to establish the quality of units in any given historical scenario. |
OldReliable1862 | 24 Jul 2020 3:52 p.m. PST |
I'm fuzzy on the changes in the borders of the German states – was Prussia recruiting troops, specifically Landwehr, from the Altmark region in this period? |
14Bore | 25 Jul 2020 11:18 a.m. PST |
Landwehr came from every provence, Altmark and Kurmark make up Brandenburg, ( I should look this all up but just going on memory for now) Silesia was listed as upper and lower but not often in designation. Pommerania, West Prussia and East Prussia finish out the areas for 1813. Later other territories were added to recruitment possibility, Westphalia was one. The original districts continued from Frederick the Greats time. |