Major Bloodnok | 14 Mar 2020 8:51 a.m. PST |
Is there any way of identifying whether an Austrian infantry unit is made of of Italians, Slavs, Hungarians etc? |
Dodgyknees the Greek | 14 Mar 2020 11:20 a.m. PST |
Hungarian Infantry wear tight trousers tucked into ankle boots. |
jurgenation | 14 Mar 2020 12:04 p.m. PST |
Dodgyknees is correct…that;s it. |
Mollinary | 14 Mar 2020 1:52 p.m. PST |
If you mean in uniform terms, dodgyknees is correct. If you mean do we know which Regiments contained these nationalities, the answer is yes. The Austrian official History Osterreich's Kampfe, is available in its entirety on line. This contains details of the ethnic origins and composition of all the Regiments, foot and horse, of the Army. |
Rudysnelson | 14 Mar 2020 2:24 p.m. PST |
Check with the local library. Almost all have the Knotel uniforms of the world book. Or you can get it through the inter-library loan program. One of the essential books for any uniform data seeker. |
Major Bloodnok | 14 Mar 2020 3:34 p.m. PST |
It is the ethnic make up, not the uniforms, that I am interested in. At Aschauffenburg some Italian units shouted "Eviva Prussia" and disintergrated, days earlier they heard of the Italian-Prussian alliance. Another regiment dumped their cartridges into a river just before Koniggratz. |
GurKhan | 14 Mar 2020 3:56 p.m. PST |
This table – link – shows where each regiment was recruited. "Venetia", obviously, is the region for the Italians, being the only remaining Austrian province in Italy. |
Major Bloodnok | 15 Mar 2020 8:05 a.m. PST |
Thanks, the table was a big help. I was thinking of downgrading any Italian units. |
Mollinary | 15 Mar 2020 11:30 a.m. PST |
I would beware of doing that. Some Italian units fought extremely well, the Battle of Nachod was a good example. This was a subject I looked at in some detail a few years ago when co-writing a couple of books on 1866 in the Wargaming in History series published by Ken Trotman. There is a temptation to judge by anecdote. I had a look as well at the casualty lists of these units. Fortunately the Austrian official history gives these for each regiment in each engagement, divided into dead, missing, wounded, prisoners, and wounded prisoners. I feel that info tells a more nuanced tale. |
Bargain Bin DM | 15 Mar 2020 1:45 p.m. PST |
…to Mollinary's point, in reality the KUK in was formed formed a myriad of nationalities. At Nachod you had Poles fighting Poles. I think for gaming purposes downgrading by nationality isn't needed. The us of Stosstaktik ( and the accompanying downgrades) by the Austrian ary in gaming terms is probably penalty enough. For quite some tie I leaned toward this line of thinking, but then while to doing in depth reading on the 1866 conflict you find that "German" regiments such as the Hoch und Deustchmeister regiment raised in Vienna wasn't much better than a regiment if Magyars! |
Major Bloodnok | 16 Mar 2020 7:56 a.m. PST |
Ahh! I will revise my thinking. I was thinking, from reading the accounts I mentioned, that when the Hapsburg's Italian troops heard about the Prussian-Italian alliance they became less than willing players in the Seven Weeks War. Thanks everyone. |
Bargain Bin DM | 16 Mar 2020 10:04 a.m. PST |
….wow, that was one error laden post I put up there!I just felt that adding another penalty to the KUK in that era was just piling on. They already have enough working against them! |
Holdfast | 22 Mar 2020 5:11 a.m. PST |
Ref Major Bloodnok's post, How would they have heard when campaigning in the middle of nowhere? And most soldiers fought for the group they were part of, not for a vague idea of national identity. |
Major Bloodnok | 23 Mar 2020 4:46 a.m. PST |
From pg. 137 "Too Little, Too Late" by Michael Embree. "The Imperial troops here, most particularly the two battalions of IR Wehrnhardt, were utterly demoralised by these encounters, and began to surrender wholesale. They had previously been made aware of the fact that a treaty had already been signed between Austria and Prussia's ally, Italy, whereby they were no longer to Habsburg subjects." Admittedly this was after they had been shot to pieces attempting to close with the Prussians, and not before. |
Ramming | 30 Mar 2020 3:45 a.m. PST |
From the reminiscences of Oberst von Himmel, IR 79 Ritter von Franck (Italian). 'Then a general staff officer on a foam-flecked horse dashed up and brought the battalion orders to storm Wenzelsberg. A general "Evviva il nostro imperatore!" rang out, and smart and closed – up as if on the exercise ground, the battalion marched to the woods. "Evviva Francesco Giuseppe!" and, formed in tightly packed Divisions-massen, unchecked, the battalion stormed forward past their fallen comrades, without firing a shot … the brave 79th Regiment, lost 36 officers and 646 men that bloody day.' |
Ramming | 30 Mar 2020 3:49 a.m. PST |
'while to doing in depth reading on the 1866 conflict you find that "German" regiments such as the Hoch und Deustchmeister regiment raised in Vienna wasn't much better than a regiment if Magyars!' What's your reference for that Bargain Bib DM? |
bargainbindm | 12 Sep 2022 11:59 a.m. PST |
….I doubt anyone will see this at such a late date, but my info on the Hoch und Deustchmeister regiment came from Wawro. |
Ramming | 14 Sep 2022 10:51 a.m. PST |
@bargainbindm Never too late. I'm very suspicious of Wawro in general and his racial stereotypes in particular. IR Franck (Italian) were good, IR Haugwitz (also Italian) were really poor, you takes your pick. This site used to list national recruiting areas so you could work out nationalities from that, unfortunately the link seems dead. Remember that some of the 'Italians' were South Tyrolean Austrians. austro-hungarian-army.co.uk |