"Chain of Command - Destroying Walls with HE?" Topic

We are shortly setting out on the Von Luck campaign which features its fair share of buildings. These are most assuredly going to be on the wrong end of my 15cm sFH13, when points allow, given the rating of British Paras in the game!

So, building damage is clearly explained in 10.3.6 but I can't see anything that relates to walls. A pretty vital consideration due to the substantial ones that litter the terrain on the majority of the game tables for this particular campaign.

The most obvious thing would seem to be a variation on the number of sixes per roll to hit as already exists for buildings.

Given the relatively low number need to make a building unstable, it presumably would need to be below that and therefore pretty easy to do.

Outside of fortifications I can't think of too many walls likely to shrug off a 15cm round from close range but I'm curious to know if I have missed a bit in the rules, or what others do in this regard.

HE could ruin the wall but it would still, mostly, be there. The HE would blow away a rather small chunk of it per hit. Buildings turn into ruins for the most part while walls would mostly turn into nearly equal height wall like rubble.

Long story short, I would not allow HE in a typical length CoC game do anything more then create a small breach.

Possibly, but we are talking about a 15cm/6inch shell here not a tank gun.

Firing over open sights at the range a CoC table represents I don't think there would be too much trouble placing rounds close enough to each other to allow infantry fairly easy access.

The key thing, game wise, is that the walls in question are supposed to be 8 – 10ft high with very few access points in them.

Its going to be a weird campaign if the Brits can hide in the buildings that are behind said walls, until they become untenable but can then comfortably stay behind the walls themselves, knowing the Germans can't get at them!

You need to be careful any ‘breach' rule doesn't allow play to get too gamey. For example the Germans could spend a series of phases demolishing lengths of wall. That's a lot of ammunition without a clear enemy target, I'd question how historical that might be. You as the gamer may know there are British behind those walls but that's to let things stray from history. The Schlepper is there to dislodge determined defenders once they've been identified.

We played the campaign without allowing for any breaching of walls by HE or by the tracked vehicles as they are not heavy enough. The Schlepper is deadly enough to threaten the Paras, I'd suggest you don't allow for any breaching by HE.

Hi TP,

I was hoping you would join in! Afraid I'm back on my old real world tactics v game tactics kick again! 🙂

I just find it a bit unlikely that if I had access to a sizeable amount of mobile bang I'd park it somewhere, with its thumb up its breach, while I allowed my Panzer Grenadiers to walk into more fire traps than they needed to.

I'm not advocating taking out whole lengths of wall inch by inch. In fact looking at the maps, there are limited opportunities for even getting a clear shot in some scenarios.

I know about the campaign rule prohibiting vehicles to breach which is fair enough.

Quite why you would want to drive a series of open topped machines at a ten foot wall when the heaviest one weighs only 8.5 tons and has a bloody great gun anyway, is ridiculous.

I appreciate the point about using the 15cm to dislodge Paras once identified, my point is if they are in a house behind a big wall and open fire, I know about it.

I'm not talking about some wargame Micky Take where I direct fire at the exact spot in a length of wall, because I can see the figures behind it.

If I drive them out of the building by gun fire and then if they chose to stand behind that wall, I have no way to make a hole to get at them even if I play the game and say I'm intending to shoot at part of the wall a couple of actual feet away!

Just because there is no rule cover making a hole!

Shells fired direct goes through wall and makes a hole. Shell goes another 10 to 30 feet and then explodes behind target (and rubble) and doesn't do that much damage. The problem is that the target may have rubble behind them that protects from the blast.

That is one of the things that kept the British Paras alive at Arnhem.

I'm not talking about some wargame Micky Take where I direct fire at the exact spot in a length of wall, because I can see the figures behind it.

LOL, however I think that is partly Rich's concern.

I guess there are two elements to your question. Could a 150mm HE round blast a breach in a wall? I suspect the answer is probably yes. How big is that breach, could units fire through it, move through it etc are a bunch of following questions that would need answers in terms of game mechanics.

The other question is how appropriate this would be and what limits would be set on it. Was HE used this way? How many shots would be allowed? You know what some gamers are like, they'll want to know if a 150 round can do it, then how big a breach can a 75mm round make and before you know it you've disappeared down a rabbit hole that invites the use of tactics that were not historical.

I hear what you are saying and understand the logic but also understand why Rich has decided against including any provision for breaching. That said, no reason for you not to create your own house rule if you wanted.

Shells fired direct goes through wall and makes a hole. Shell goes another 10 to 30 feet and then explodes behind target (and rubble) and doesn't do that much damage. The problem is that the target may have rubble behind them that protects from the blast.

Maybe, although the munitions fired from the 15cm sFH13, had an impact fuse, so if fired at the base of a wall and we are talking real wall here in Normandy, two feet thick and 8-10 feet high, given the shell weighed 93 pounds there would have been quite a bang.

That is one of the things that kept the British Paras alive at Arnhem.

Yes indeed, the Paras made a lot of use of rubble and there was a lot of rubble to be had but most would have been from houses collapsing and therefore creating piles of the stuff not the fallout of a length of wall which would have been blown back from the impact point.

TP,

I guess there are two elements to your question. Could a 150mm HE round blast a breach in a wall? I suspect the answer is probably yes. How big is that breach, could units fire through it, move through it etc are a bunch of following questions that would need answers in terms of game mechanics.

Well game mechanics is point in itself. If you give players a tool they will want to use it.

In that regard "Demolition Teams" (which the Germans don't get in the Campaign) are another such one. All nations get them in the army lists but the only use that gets a mention is blowing up roadblocks or clearing wire.

In our Operation Martlet Campaign we let the Brits blow holes in walls and buildings deemed big enough for a man to pass, without even questioning it!

Now, I for one appreciate a set of WW2 rules that don't rivet count (We play What a Tanker too). Largest war ever, fought with many technologies, at many levels. It can turn into quicksand in a twinkle of an eye. But if the weapon is in the rules selective use is a poor thing.

BTW:The 15cm sFH13 was very likely an unpleasant beast. It was WW1 vintage, it should be noted, but the British in the front line then, hated them for their destructive power, they nicknamed them "five nines".

15cm = 5.9 inches.

For the first 18 months of the war they were the biggest guns that could be got close to the trenches. Until the Brits got 6in Howitzers themselves.