Tango01 | 06 Mar 2020 3:14 p.m. PST |
…Waterloo due to Napoleons lack of judgment?. ""To what extent was French defeat at the battle of Waterloo due to Napoleons lack of judgment"? After abdicating to the island of Elba Napoleon Bonaparte returned to France to rule the country once again. However after just 100 days ruling he had suffered the final defeat and was aboard a British ship returning to exile once more. He gambled everything on a battle which if he had won would've have left in an extremely strong position in Europe and would've changed the face of Europe as we know it today. He was arguably the greatest military commander in modern times; he achieved things that seemed impossible on many occasions. However this deity of modern warfare and Emperor of France was beaten during a battle, which everything was in his favour. To what extent it was his fault? Or was napoleon controlled by circumstances? Many historians make a very good case for the battle being Napoleons fault. There evidence can be divided into tactical errors, personal errors and political lack of judgement. However, many people see that the loss was no fault of his; this evidence will again be split into what napoleon did right during the battle (therefore not making it his fault), the fact that he could have been beaten by a better enemy, and other reasons accounting for the loss. Tactically, Napoleon had often proven himself to be brilliant. Looking into his previous battles the battle of the pyramids is a good example of this. Facing elite Mameluke cavalry of Murad Bey1, and hardened desert veterans napoleon brilliantly commanded his troops, which resulted in an emphatic victory. The Murad Bey army lost thousands of men and horses. The French lost 29 men. Another example of Napoleon's tactical genius comes from his early campaigns in Italy and Austria. Here he showed, as a young man, his credentials as a commander. He was defeating men like General Alvinczy2, an extremely experienced leader of the Austrian army. …" Main page link Amicalement Armand
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BillyNM | 06 Mar 2020 11:50 p.m. PST |
The buck stops with Napoleon, everything else is just making excuses, although that doesn't mean he's not one of the greatest generals of all time. |
von Winterfeldt | 07 Mar 2020 12:34 a.m. PST |
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Tango01 | 07 Mar 2020 11:40 a.m. PST |
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Gazzola | 07 Mar 2020 3:47 p.m. PST |
The French lost the battle. Those who like to blame Napoleon are usually those who like to blame everything on the Emperor, no matter what, due to their own blinkered and silly bias against him. I see it as a team failure. In football, if the manager/coach puts on certain players and asks them to score goals and they don't, then you can't just simply blame the manager or the players for having a bad day. The manager can't foresee that players, who previously may have always scored, fail to score. The same with Napoleon, he did not expect Grouchy, for example, to fail to prevent the Prussians bypassing him and coming to Welly's aid. This, of course, is just one factor in the defeat at Waterloo and I'm not throwing the whole blame onto Grouchy. Like I say, it was a team failure. Blaming one person won't change the result. |
JayM481 | 08 Mar 2020 8:53 a.m. PST |
Managers get the sack more often than players though. A footy analogy probably isn't the best one for illustrating the point you're trying to make. |
arthur1815 | 08 Mar 2020 10:13 a.m. PST |
But a 'team failure', to continue the soccer analogy, may have several causes, ranging from everyone simply having 'an off day' [the other side simply played better/had some good luck]; the manager having chosen his team badly/put players in positions to which they were not suited [Soult as Chief of Staff?], underestimating his opponents [I tell you the English are bad troops &c &c] or giving poor instructions [Grouchy's orders?]; or individual players making mistakes/failing to seize chances [Grouchy not marching to sound of guns? Ney sending cavalry in unsupported?]. Bonaparte was eager to claim the credit for victories, but was not so keen to accept responsibility for his defeat. |
La Belle Ruffian | 08 Mar 2020 2:01 p.m. PST |
This young man or woman has a bright future, I'm sure. |
Tango01 | 08 Mar 2020 3:38 p.m. PST |
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huevans011 | 08 Mar 2020 7:20 p.m. PST |
Waterloo Napoleon had no option but to fight it, as Bluecher and Wellington were invincible if they had an opportunity to unite. He gambled that Grouchy could intercept Bluecher and allow the Emperor to defeat the British-Allied army or at least break it up and force the British west towards the North Sea ports, thus ensuring they stayed separate from Bluecher. Could he have smashed Wellington before Bluecher showed up???… Sure. A massed cavalry charge to clear the heights and force the British into square BEFORE D'Erlon attacked would have been a great idea. Not having D'Erlon attack in a dense formation would have been pretty good too. Not having Reille over commit around Hougomont would also have been advantageous. To some extent, Wellington simply used the advantages of being on the defence and of the ground to force Napoleon to commit to attacks and formations first, so The Duke could then react to them successfully. This was the whole basis for many of The Duke's Spanish victories and he was damn good at doing just that. Some stuff like Reille was just the Emperor having his usual "hands off" management style. What was different about Waterloo as opposed to the battles of the 1805-1812 period is that there was no margin of error. Napoleon had to be dead on right ALL the time because the odds were heavily against him in 1815. In early conflicts, the French always had the bigger, better army and could afford to mess up a few times and still win in the end. The problem is that Napoleon doesn't change his style and ride herd on D'Erlon, Reille and OMG! Ney and all 3 of them royally mess around. |
sjpatejak | 08 Mar 2020 9:44 p.m. PST |
He handed much of the battle over to Ney, a man of undoubted courage, but limited intellect. I you want to storm the gates of hell, you use Ney. If you want to defeat Wellington, you use Davout, whom Napoleon left behind in Paris. |
Marc the plastics fan | 09 Mar 2020 1:07 a.m. PST |
Huev for the win The margins were so tight. If Prussia had got caught by Grouchy in a more effective way, and so lessened their support, then a different outcome. Wellington was reliant one the promised support arriving, and Napoleon lost VI corp and the YG early in the day, and the impact of being outflanked sapped the troops morale. Great battle, decisive, and one that has brought many a gamer to wargaming, but a close run thing indeed. |
ScottWashburn | 09 Mar 2020 4:59 a.m. PST |
George Pickett, when asked why the Confederates lost the Battle of Gettysburg replied: "I always thought the Yankees had something to do with it." So in the case of Waterloo, I suspect the British and Prussians had something to do with it. |
138SquadronRAF | 09 Mar 2020 7:30 a.m. PST |
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Incavart77 | 09 Mar 2020 7:51 p.m. PST |
Napoleon had one chance to get it right and the allies had close to unlimited resources to keep at him. |
Gazzola | 10 Mar 2020 9:35 a.m. PST |
JayM481 Sacking the manager or changing the manager (commander) may not make a difference, unless the players carry out the roles and tasks effectively, so the football example is a fine. Teams vary rarely improve for several years if the manager is replaced and that time is not usually available in war. |
Gazzola | 10 Mar 2020 9:54 a.m. PST |
huevans011 Yep, a team failure like I said. Or, to use the football angle again, Wellington was relying desperately on his late substitutes (Prussians) arriving on the field and making the difference, which, luckily for him, they did. (he would have got sacked in the morning otherwise. LOL) Napoleon's late substitutes (16th-D'Erlon and 18th Grouchy)failed the tasks the manager gave them or didn't even get on the field. |
ReallySameSeneffeAsBefore | 11 Mar 2020 2:28 p.m. PST |
I think Scott Washburn nails the thread. Huevans- I'm not 100% sure that a massed cavalry charge BEFORE D'Erlon's attack would really have been a winning formula. It's the first time I've heard that suggestion. I suppose it has the advantage of being such an off-playbook use of the French Napoleonic mounted arm that Wellington and the allies might have been completely nonplussed by it. The several interlinked combats which can be wrapped together under the title of D'Erlon's attack caused quite lot of attrition and dislocation in the allied ranks- and though not as much as some French officers perceived- there was significant material damage to the allied defence by the time the cavalry attacks took place. I think that the French cavalry attacking the intact main allied position on the ridge first would have been very unlikely to be able to be hold the allies 'in square', or even stay in a threatening position on or near the ridge until the French infantry could follow up. It's a good tactical wargamey ploy, but not for real in a big battle. |
42flanker | 11 Mar 2020 11:00 p.m. PST |
A cavalry assault against unbroken infantry in front might have been somewhat contrary to all the usages of warfare and the customs of the service. |
Nine pound round | 12 Mar 2020 4:39 a.m. PST |
Ha! +1 for paraphrasing Jim the Bear. |
Brechtel198 | 12 Mar 2020 5:30 a.m. PST |
Napoleon stated at St Helena that none of them, including himself, did their duty at Waterloo. |
Robert le Diable | 12 Mar 2020 7:51 a.m. PST |
Aye, someone blundered right enough! R the D. |
huevans011 | 12 Mar 2020 8:15 p.m. PST |
Huevans- I'm not 100% sure that a massed cavalry charge BEFORE D'Erlon's attack would really have been a winning formula. It's the first time I've heard that suggestion. I suppose it has the advantage of being such an off-playbook use of the French Napoleonic mounted arm that Wellington and the allies might have been completely nonplussed by it.The several interlinked combats which can be wrapped together under the title of D'Erlon's attack caused quite lot of attrition and dislocation in the allied ranks- and though not as much as some French officers perceived- there was significant material damage to the allied defence by the time the cavalry attacks took place. I think that the French cavalry attacking the intact main allied position on the ridge first would have been very unlikely to be able to be hold the allies 'in square', or even stay in a threatening position on or near the ridge until the French infantry could follow up. It's a good tactical wargamey ploy, but not for real in a big battle. Well, let's play it through… I see D'Erlon's attack being a contest between the French high command and The Duke as to who would keep the other off balance sufficiently to win the first round on the Eastern part of the battlefield. The Emperor, Ney, D'Erlon and Reille are talking at breakfast. They decide that The Duke always counters a French infantry attack by moving his own infantry to block. So they decide that D'Erlon will move up fast in a dense formation with wide frontage – essentially his entire corps in a series of big, solid blocks. They savour the omelette and the excellent coffee. There's no way that a thin line of cocky redcoats will stop what's going to roll up the slope of La Haye Sainte and hit them. The Duke weighs his options carefully. He sees a VAST, solid array of French divisions deploy and advance. They're not one behind the other – Girard's mistake at ALbuera. They're spread across the entire eastern side of the battlefield. The Duke doesn't have enough infantry to hold them. But he has another plan, something he's never done before. In fact, no one has done it before. As soon as the French crest the ridge and stumble across the sunken lane, he's going to hit them head on with cavalry. The French won't have time to react. Normally unbroken infantry hit head on with cavalry would laugh it off; but this time, they won't expect it or be ready and the cavalry will break into their formation and destroy them. What would dislodge the British cavalry and prevent them making that charge?… French cavalry. What would block a French cavalry corps or two making that charge?…. Well, Picton's division would form square. And the cuirassiers would ride around them. And then D'Erlon would over run Picton's squares and the battle would be won. The Duke's left would be smashed and his front would be forced back into a right angle on LHS, which the French horse artillery could then enfilade at close range. The French win in an hour. |
huevans011 | 12 Mar 2020 8:27 p.m. PST |
A cavalry assault against unbroken infantry in front might have been somewhat contrary to all the usages of warfare and the customs of the service. But that's EXACTLY what Wellington and Uxbridge do so brilliantly with the Union Brigade. |
Robert le Diable | 13 Mar 2020 12:56 p.m. PST |
Would not Wellington &c. have seen Milhaud's Cavalry Corps manoeuvring just as readily as they saw d'Erlon's, though? Admittedly, it might by then have already been too late to prevent the combined-arms operation from succeeding. And we do know for certain that French cavalry reached at least part of the ridgeline later on. Would be a big risk. Just the thing for a Wargame! |
4th Cuirassier | 14 Mar 2020 6:14 a.m. PST |
@ huevans Fun speculation but wide of the mark I fear. They decide that The Duke always counters a French infantry attack by moving his own infantry to block. they have no idea what he does to meet attacks because his men are always on a reverse slope. Still, the Emperor's Adrians are playing up so his judgement's not A1 today. D'Erlon will move up fast in a dense formation with wide frontage which is so wide it stretches from La Haye Sainte to Papelotte, leaving no room for any more than a brigade of cavalry to cover the flank. Still, a brigade will be enough Wellington never launches elite heavy cavalry counter-attacks on a divisional scale. Christ, these Sigmunds are uncomfortable on horseback. What would block a French cavalry corps or two making that charge? La Haye Sainte, the sandpit, and flanking fire from the artillery ranged along Mont St Jean west of La Haye Sainte. An unforgettable artillery target, perhaps the best of all time after d'Erlon's attack itself (honourable mention for Macdonald at Wagram). Still, this is no time for an Emperor "of the French" to worry about preserving French lives. There's a throne at stake here. Not to mention the imperial farmers. Ouch. The Duke's left would be smashed and his front would be forced back The French would be brought to a standstill by musketry from their front then thrown back by the heavy cavalry, leaving thousands behind as casualties and prisoners and no formed French troops intact between Papelotte and Hougoumont. Rubbing his Badmintons cautiously, Napoleon reflects that the Prussians are now an hour closer, and starts thinking abut how to blame this one on Grouchy. |
huevans011 | 14 Mar 2020 7:00 a.m. PST |
But if one put the cavalry IN FRONT OF D'Erlon, there is all the room you need. And the British artillery – relatively weak for an army in northern Europe (as opposed to Spain) – didn't stop the later cavalry charges… What does The Duke have on the eastern side of the battlefield?…. Picton, Bijlandt and cavalry. He over commits around Hougomont and LHS. This is the one thing that Napoleon gets right in his analysis of what to do. The Duke doesn't have enough on his eastern side to stop massed French horse. |
42flanker | 14 Mar 2020 7:33 a.m. PST |
A cavalry assault against unbroken infantry in front might have been somewhat contrary to all the usages of warfare and the customs of the service.But that's EXACTLY what Wellington and Uxbridge do so brilliantly with the Union Brigade. I may only be a lay observer here but I'd say an infantry force on the move and negotiating a field obstacle under fire was not necessarily in the best condition to receive cavalry; still less an attack at launched at close range from concealment in dead ground. Not broken, perhaps, but arguably bent. |
4th Cuirassier | 15 Mar 2020 6:22 a.m. PST |
The Duke doesn't have enough on his eastern side to stop massed French horse. If only Napoleon had known that! Then he wouldn't have been outwitted as he was. |
4th Cuirassier | 15 Mar 2020 1:41 p.m. PST |
The more interesting what-if IMHO is, what if Napoleon's lever arches hadn't been playing him up? |
Whirlwind | 15 Mar 2020 1:52 p.m. PST |
The key to cavalry success in the 1815 campaign was surprise: time after time one reads of cavalry at Quatre Bras and Waterloo achieving results by surprising the defending infantry. I am impressed: I think Huevans' plan is genuinely the worst what-if I have ever read. After the massed French horse are disordered by the artillery fire and crossing the hedge and ridgeline, are massacred by fire from fresh infantry in impreganable squares then routed by being charged by fresh squadrons of Allied cavalry, what does he think will happen when those routing French horseman pile-in to d'Erlon's advancing troops? Wellington would have been eating his supper in Charleroi leaving a trail of dead Frenchmen and abandoned cannon for Blucher to follow. |
huevans011 | 15 Mar 2020 2:39 p.m. PST |
I am impressed: I think Huevans' plan is genuinely the worst what-if I have ever read. After the massed French horse are disordered by the artillery fire and crossing the hedge and ridgeline, are massacred by fire from fresh infantry in impreganable squares then routed by being charged by fresh squadrons of Allied cavalry, what does he think will happen when those routing French horseman pile-in to d'Erlon's advancing troops? Wellington would have been eating his supper in Charleroi leaving a trail of dead Frenchmen and abandoned cannon for Blucher to follow. Look at the maps. Wellington is over concentrated on his west side behind Hougomont. He doesn't have enough force on his east side to create the kind of chaos you predict. Even later in the day, the French cavalry could not be repulsed from Wellington's position. True, they couldn't break the Allied squares; but neither were they driven off. With infantry and artillery support, those Allied squares would be easily broken.
linkzyanmaps.appspot.com/# |
huevans011 | 15 Mar 2020 2:53 p.m. PST |
Look at the map. The Duke is holding the eastern side of his line with Pack and Kempt's brigades and cavalry. Best and Vincke are Hanoverian militia and won't stand. The Union Bde saves The Duke's rear end because he has nothing else in place to stop D'Erlon when the 2 British infantry brigades start crumbling. If French cavalry force Pack and Kempt into square and block the British heavy cavalry, it's game over. D'Erlon follows, over runs the British squares and there's nothing else to hold that sector of the line. The Duke would have to withdraw west towards Braine l'Alleud to cover his line of retreat to the North Sea ports. |
Whirlwind | 15 Mar 2020 3:07 p.m. PST |
That really is the most arrant nonsense. To make your scheme work, then the French cavalry need to deploy in front of D'Erlon. They have to deploy in huge depth because there simply isn't that much space. There is no space to do passage of lines or anything complicated which you couldn't do anyway because you are under fire the whole time. As soon as they are repulsed, which the definitely are, then they rout through the whole French force. Look at the maps. Wellington is over concentrated on his west side behind Hougomont. He doesn't have enough force on his east side to create the kind of chaos you predict. There are plenty troops to defend the very limited frontage, especially given that they can't even be properly seen from the French position Best and Vincke are Hanoverian militia and won't stand. Except they absolutely did stand on the actual day in worse circumstances than you are describing. when the 2 British infantry brigades start crumbling. There is nothing to make them crumble. If French cavalry force Pack and Kempt into square and block the British heavy cavalry But they aren't going to do this because they have already been disordered by the charge, the artillery fire and the fire from the squares. They are going to be in the position that the British heavy cavalry were in after routing D'Erlon's corps in the actual battle, except that in your scheme, the French cavalry achieve absolutely nothing before being decimated by the fresh Allied squadrons. Even later in the day, the French cavalry could not be repulsed from Wellington's position. True, they couldn't break the Allied squares; but neither were they driven off. With infantry and artillery support, those Allied squares would be easily broken. The French cavalry were repeatedly driven off. But more importantly, there is simply no time, or space, to do what you are suggesting: if the French cavalry are massed there, then D'Erlon's artillery and infantry are behind them. By the time they have marched halfway up the slope, then the routing hordes of French cavalry are sweeping them across the field |
Robert le Diable | 15 Mar 2020 3:21 p.m. PST |
Tell ye what; the next time anyone plays a re-match of Waterloo, try this "opening variation" and see what happens. If it's as disastrous as some think, then just claim you were trying out the suggestion from TMP. If it's as successful as claimed/anticipated, thrust your right hand into your waistcoat and strut off humming the Chant du Depart. At least there won't be any casualties. |
Jeffers | 15 Mar 2020 3:47 p.m. PST |
Off topic, but I will add The Imperial Farmers' to the list of things that have brightened my week. |
4th Cuirassier | 16 Mar 2020 2:03 a.m. PST |
Well, yes, look at the map. Historically the French cavalry were packed so closely together between LHS and Hougoumont that horses and men in the middle were lifted off the ground by the crush. The space between LHS and Hougoumont is actually wider than that between LHS and Papelotte! The valley west of LHS is also slightly wider than to the east, despite which the cavalry were "so numerous that those of the rear were still below the brow when the head of the column was but at sixty or seventy yards from our guns". Your suggestion is that there should have been 18,000 infantry added into this mix as well. Meanwhile, what's Wellington going to be doing with the troops on his right, who are now opposed by basically nobody? Planning a clunking great right hook to make sure the French centre has its back to the Prussians when they arrive… The Emperor's Tate & Lyles may have been playing him up that day, but he could still recognise a bad idea when he saw one… |
Robert le Diable | 16 Mar 2020 5:30 a.m. PST |
4th Cuirassier, for just how many medical conditions can you supply Rhyming-Slang equivalents? What about Wellington's problem with a Stiff Upper Lip? Good Luck! |
4th Cuirassier | 16 Mar 2020 7:01 a.m. PST |
Sigmund Freuds seem to trigger the most creativity, for some reason…I only heard "lever arches" last week… |
42flanker | 16 Mar 2020 7:05 a.m. PST |
Oh.. 'lever arches'- just got that. |
Windy Miller | 16 Mar 2020 9:59 a.m. PST |
Lol! Got them all apart from Adrians. Stumped on that one. |
42flanker | 16 Mar 2020 11:08 a.m. PST |
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Windy Miller | 16 Mar 2020 11:24 a.m. PST |
Ah! Him. "Personality" is stretching it a bit ain't it? |
4th Cuirassier | 16 Mar 2020 12:39 p.m. PST |
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Robert le Diable | 16 Mar 2020 1:21 p.m. PST |
I still can't understand "lever arches"; I wondered had it something to do with built-up shoes and flat feet (heightism joke, you see). Maybe "arches" should be pronounced "a l'Anglais", i.e. "Ah--chezz"? |
4th Cuirassier | 16 Mar 2020 2:06 p.m. PST |
Lever arch files = piles link |
huevans011 | 16 Mar 2020 2:12 p.m. PST |
Whirlwind, there is plenty of room for the cuirassiers to deply and they would have gone over or past two British infantry brigades without difficulty. That's only 3 battalions. The Union Bde got trapped and destroyed after riding THROUGH a dense formation of many more infantry. I'm not going to continue the argument, because it will degenerate. But I suggest you get a good set of rules and play it out. |
huevans011 | 16 Mar 2020 2:14 p.m. PST |
"Well, yes, look at the map. Historically the French cavalry were packed so closely together between LHS and Hougoumont that horses and men in the middle were lifted off the ground by the crush. The space between LHS and Hougoumont is actually wider than that between LHS and Papelotte! The valley west of LHS is also slightly wider than to the east, despite which the cavalry were "so numerous that those of the rear were still below the brow when the head of the column was but at sixty or seventy yards from our guns".Your suggestion is that there should have been 18,000 infantry added into this mix as well. Meanwhile, what's Wellington going to be doing with the troops on his right, who are now opposed by basically nobody? Planning a clunking great right hook to make sure the French centre has its back to the Prussians when they arrive…" The Duke's right is still pinned by infantry and superior artillery. The later French cavalry charges became congested because Ney over committed. |
huevans011 | 16 Mar 2020 2:19 p.m. PST |
The Emperor's Tate & Lyles may have been playing him up that day, but he could still recognise a bad idea when he saw one… Well, the idea he opted for – D'Erlon's massed infantry attack – was a stroke of brilliance, wasn't it?! Probably the most disastrous assault in the entire Napoleonic Wars. An entire infantry corps repulsed and demoralized by a single cavalry brigade?! I think your Tate & Lyles must be playing up, my son. |
dibble | 16 Mar 2020 4:09 p.m. PST |
I think your Tate & Lyles must be playing up, my son. His memory is too. It's 'farmer Giles'…:) |