"The role of Kardakes in combat." Topic

Should these be depicted as Heavy Infantry or Medium Infantry during the latter Achaemenid & early Hellenistic periods?

Thanks.

I always used them as medium infantry.

I always thought Kardakes were an attempt to replicate Peltastoi in Hellenistic armies, so medium would be my suggestion too.

Does "Early Hellenistic" mean that you're thinking about Raphia? That's the only post-Achaemenid reference to kardakes that I can recall.

If so, I am not sure we can assume that the Seleucid kardakes are a continuation of the Achaemenid institution; there is too big a gap. At Raphia they are brigaded with javelinmen and are either on the extreme wing of the infantry line or perhaps ahead of it escorting the elephants; so I might treat them as light infantry.

As for the Achaemenid kardakes, I haven't changed my own view since the letter Jeff J quoted at link – that is, Arrian explicitly calls them hoplites (so heavy infantry, by most rulesets' definitions), and the association with peltasts – nobody actually says that the kardakes were peltasts – is a confusion with a reference to a different body of infantry entirely.

Gurkhan, yes, I was referring to their (somewhat theorized) use by the Successors.

Gurkhan, wow, I need to update that page if it is being used as a referral point!
(I'm glad it is not out of date! But I note in the Osprey on Macedonian Warrior vs. Persian Warrior, the author does go through some effort and adopts Curtius' deployment and designations. I'm not sold on that, but as with many of Alexander's battles why not have two or more versions?)

Kadakes are often seen as an imitation of the Greek hoplite.

If that was in fact the case, and learning from their own inadequacies, the Persians would also undoubtedly have noticed how the flanks of Greek phalanxes were supported by peltasts.

Well, as there was no shortage of the lighter, missile-troops in Persia or Asia Minor, would it not be highly probable that the Persians would have had medium troops stationed on the wings of their Kadakes (hoplites) and that these chaps with javelins, and some with bows or slings might have been seen as "Kadakes" too?

Was it before the 370`s BC that the Persians imitated a complete military system and method comprising of phalanx/peltasts/missile troops? I think of Kadakes as a corps rather than a single troop type.

Thanks- interesting discussion!

Nepos' "slingers of the same origin" would certainly fit well with the idea they're a corps (or recruitment category or the like) rather than a troop-type.

Alexander`s cavalry having such a big effect in attacking the Kadakes flank at Issus would make more sense if these were light and medium troops on the left of the Persian phalanx that gave way so easily, rather than the spearmen themselves.

It seems clear that the Kardakes at Issus are a puzzle. Two ideas:
One: Depict them both as round shield "hoplites" and crescent shield "peltasts" that were massed because of the terrain. This massing is one of the driving features of the description of all sources. As peltasts they had no room to open formation (and further skirmishers were deployed in front), so they may have been just for show.

Two: The"peltast others" could have just been Armenians and Kurds brigaded with the kardakes hoplite groups and sources just jumble them all together. Either way it doesn't matter much if none of them stood and fought.

The Persian forward deployed archers and slingers panic seems to have hurried the left wing's whole advance to the rear, allowing the Macedonians to get over the river and surprise all the (few) enemy cavalry and other kardakes and massed reserves of "the most warlike" into bolting as well since there isn't much commentary about anybody resisting until Alexander and the cavalry are charging Darius. Usually in game set-ups this is where Darius finds a way to win, because usually the Persian can do better than have their entire left wing (including the useless mountain out-flankers) put up zero resistance.

As for the Raphia kardakes, I assume that these were actual skirmisher types and maybe are called Kardakes because they could be actual Kurds- which is another proposed source for the term. At Raphia the Seleucid deployment is what I would call at best "haphazard", since it too uses troops in the battle line that would seem ill suited for that role. Obviously this a deliberate attempt by ancient chroniclers to confuse us :)

One figure I like to depict maybe this type of Successor Kurd/Kardakes would be the Newline Designs Kappadocian Swordsmen, which can be converted easily into javelin men.

They kind of look like these Xyston 15's (only not archers):

Magister Militum has a pose in small 28mm:

link

Wow, those are nice figures.

Do I need another scale in Hellenistics?!