Artilleryman | 28 Feb 2020 5:23 a.m. PST |
As I understand matters, in 1812, the grenadier companies of the 2nd (depot) battalions of the six infantry regiments in a division (including the jagers) were combined to give two battalions of three companies each. This is straight forward. However, grenadier companies were divided into grenadier platoons and strelki (sharpshooter) platoons. In a normal battalion the two platoons formed up on the right (grenadier) and left (strelki) flanks. My question is, how did the companies form up in a grenadier battalion? Did the companies form with their platoons together? Or did all the strelki platoons form up together on the left? Anyone know? |
Prince of Essling | 28 Feb 2020 1:52 p.m. PST |
According to George Nafziger "The Russian army 1800-1815" : "When the depot battalions were stripped of their grenadier companies they were converged into 2 company battalions. The first battalion was formed from the grenadier companies of the first and second infantry regiments as well as that of the first jager regiment. The grenadier companies of the third and fourth infantry regiments as well as that of the second jager regiment were organised into the second battalion. The first half of the battalion was composed of the grenadier platoons or sections of these companies. The second half of the battalion was formed of the tirailleur sections. The first section was formed of the grenadiers from the first jager regiment, the second section from the first infantry, and the third section from the second infantry. The fourth section was formed from the tirailleurs of the second infantry, the fifth section from the first infantry and the sixth section from the first jagers. The second battalion was similarly organised." |
Artilleryman | 28 Feb 2020 3:46 p.m. PST |
Merci votre Excellance. That is just what I needed. |
14Bore | 28 Feb 2020 4:56 p.m. PST |
Just now working on my units history and at the Converged Grenadiers. For the 1st Western army the 1st Division supplied 2 battalions for the VCorp as did the 4th Division. The 17th Div supplied 1 batt to the 23 Division, IV Corp which also got its own companies in a combined 11/23 battalion. The 2nd and 3rd Brigades of the III division each picked up 1 battalion.5 |
Artilleryman | 29 Feb 2020 3:53 a.m. PST |
Did they carry colours, and if so, were they their own or from a parent regiment like the Austrians did? |
Prince of Essling | 29 Feb 2020 4:35 a.m. PST |
Looking at Nafziger the answer is a yes but I cannot see a reference to what the flags were. Will keep looking just in case I missed it. After rechecking, I will also set out how the officers etc were arranged. |
Artilleryman | 29 Feb 2020 5:05 a.m. PST |
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14Bore | 29 Feb 2020 7:35 a.m. PST |
Its a mind swirling subject Russian flags, so off the top of my head its 2nd reserve battalions, reduced number of flags by 1812 and down to what company might have them in possession. 1=60 rules they are only 6 figure battalions so sticking a flag barrier in that isn't practical. |
Prince of Essling | 29 Feb 2020 10:36 a.m. PST |
Sorry cannot see any info on the flags. "The commander of the grenadier company of the first jager regiment stood to the right of the first section. On the right of the second section stood the lieutenant of the grenadier company of the first infantry regiment. The lieutenant of the grenadier company of the second infantry regiment stood to the right of the third section, the commander of the grenadier company of the second infantry regiment stood to the right of the fourth section and separated the flag guard from the rest of the men. The commander of the grenadier company of the first infantry regiment stood to the right of the fifth section and the lieutenant of the first jager regiment stood to the left of the sixth section. Between the fifth and sixth section stood an officer of the grenadier company of the first jager regiment. The officers posted in the file closer ranks stood behind their companies in the same manner as they did in the normal battalions. The sergeant majors stood in the file closer ranks behind the grenadier section of their companies. The under officers were positioned as follows: six guarded the battalion standard, seven were assigned to the sections and stood in the third rank behind their officer, one separated the flag guard from the third section and the others were in the file closers rank." |
Artilleryman | 01 Mar 2020 12:10 p.m. PST |
I have just found this. SSUPUSS SSXXXSS SSUPUSS S = grenadier, fusilier or musketeer : 3 chosen men from each company in the battalion U = under-officer (corporal) : 1 chosen man from each company in the battalion P = podpraporshchik ("warrant officer" or perhaps "master sergeant" **) with the flag ( 2 chosen from among the 4 in the battalion) X = empty placeholder 2nd Replacement Fusilier or Muskeeter battalions, if taking the field apart from the "active" battalions of the regiment, would form in 6 platoons : as above, but without the Grenadier and Marksmen platoons. They did carry flags, in a Banner Group, as per the diagram above. Combined Grenadier battalions (formed from the combining of Grenadier companies of 2nd battalions of regiments in the same division) would form in 6 platoons : (from right to left) Grenadier Platoon from jäger regiment, Grenadier Platoon from senior heavy regiment, Grenadier Platoon from junior heavy regiment, Marksmen Platoon from junior heavy regiment, Marksmen Platoon from senior heavy regiment, Marksmen Platoon from jäger regiment. Although they did not carry flags into the field, the still formed a Banner Group (presumably to defend the battalion commander) as per the diagram above, placed between the two platoons from the junior heavy regiment. So maybe no standard at all. |
Prince of Essling | 02 Mar 2020 10:33 a.m. PST |
@Artilleryman, You may be right – I saw the reference to the flag guard and put 2 & 2 together and came up with 5! |
Scott Sutherland | 14 Mar 2020 11:02 a.m. PST |
Note the combined grenadier battalions are fundamentally administrative units to move replacement troops from the depot to the field battalions. So they are "grenadier" only in the sense that they are the senior company of conscripts in the depot battalion. Once they reach the field battalions they are intended to be merged into the musketeer and jager companies. Hence no flags, grenadier plumes, or strelki assignments apply. It may be that some or all 2nd battalion troops only have the forage cap issued as per 23 September 1811. There not being enough of the new kiwer of 1 January 1812. If you want to do some reading I recommend - Organisation – see 12 October 1810 regulation and other references to "zapasnyi. In particular, 5 May 1812 link - Uniforms link - Flags – link |
Zhmodikov | 18 Mar 2020 12:49 p.m. PST |
Scott Sutherland wrote:
Note the combined grenadier battalions are fundamentally administrative units to move replacement troops from the depot to the field battalions.So they are "grenadier" only in the sense that they are the senior company of conscripts in the depot battalion. Once they reach the field battalions they are intended to be merged into the musketeer and jager companies.
It was strictly prescribed that the grenadier companies of the reserve battalions had to be of the same quality as other grenadier companies. Only the grenadiers had plumes, the "strelki" had no plumes. |