"COVID-19 Fears and Wargaming" Topic

I am really shocked at this post. Not the original question, or the responses. The majority, with a couple of humorous ones mixed in, are well thought out and well stated.

I am shocked though that nobody said that if gamers survived the pre-renovation Host, they are immune to all disease. Or that nobody came up with a formula about how immune you are based on the number of players in a game multiplied by the number of game hours, multiplied by two (we have to account for both player and Host transmitted diseases), to determine level of immunity.

Seriously, if people do things like actually washing their hands properly, it will go a long way toward preventing issues.

And for the record, i will miss The Host if HMGS doesn't go there anymore. I just never stayed in the hotel rooms.

Ok, I'll let him know some random poster on a wargaming forum thinks he should rethink best practice, I mean what does this ER doctor know anyway?

Lol, really? The RotW are taking this way more seriously than you seem to be doing in the States, you're being inconsistent in your response. And going by what we are doing in the UK I still say your ER doc needs to rethink his best practice. Let us know how it works out for him once this does start to spread in the USA

Got off the phone with my father last night, where he told me about a conversation with his nephew (my cousin), a physician who's an expert on infectious disease (he worked for several years in Africa, treating various outbreaks, even secretly crossing into Somalia to aid victims there). My cousin was consulted when the Ebola crisis broke out, regarding how to treat the American medical personnel who contracted that virus. While he hasn't been consulted about this outbreak, coronaviruses aren't his specific area. But even so, he's not concerned at all about COVID-19 as a disease. The chance of contracting it in the US still remains very low, and the risk of death is also low— largely restricted to those with otherwise compromised immune systems and/or already existing serious respiratory problems.
His concern is exactly what the above mentioned ER doctor said: That individuals will panic, and overwhelm emergency rooms and hospitals if they so much as come down with a mild case of the sniffles. When that happens, doctors and nurses will be tied down treating "victims" with nothing more than media-induced hypochondria, delaying or even denying resources and care to those who are suffering from actual medical emergencies. Then people will die— not from COVID-19, but from truly killer, yet treatable, diseases and conditions already present, simply because they can't get care because some foolish people bought into overblown panic hype. Think about it: There are limited medical resources available in any society— the number of hospital beds, ERs, ER physicians, nurses, technicians, etc., not to mention medical supplies, medicines and equipment are all finite. No society is or can be prepared for even 10% of its population to suddenly panic and rush to the ER because some no-nothing glorified "news" celebrity declares a disaster which doesn't yet and may never exist!
Yes, folks, the media panic and apparent efforts to spread panic could wind up killing people. And that's just the tip of the iceberg such irresponsible talk could steer the world into.
Think about that before you go off hyping something you don't understand either.

Thanks Parzival, well put.

This is almost exactly what a health professional on a panel said yesterday; he's furious with all the misinformation being spread, mostly by the media, his biggest concern is our health care industry will get overwhelmed with people who have the sniffles, which is basically what my ER doctor friend also said.

AGAIN there Volleyfire; while I'm certainly not scoffing at this virus, I'm not panicking over it either, there is a happy medium.

Well, we survived the pig roasts at the Host for years, and many are aware of the multitude of sanitary and health violations they found. That's it, I'm bringing Carona beer to Cold Wars!

On a serious note, just take precautions like mentioned in this thread, and stay aware of the evolving situation. See ya'll at Cold Wars.

"California just announced 8400 potential (non-confirmed) cases under observation."

The state that puts cancer warning labels on potatoes, lamps, and wood furniture put out a warning that .02% of its population could possibly have the coronavirus.

Whatever happens I'm concerned with the number of hospitals that have closed or are closing in the states. Hopefully it won't come back to bite us.

"His concern is exactly what the above mentioned ER doctor said: That individuals will panic, and overwhelm emergency rooms and hospitals if they so much as come down with a mild case of the sniffles. When that happens, doctors and nurses will be tied down treating "victims" with nothing more than media-induced hypochondria, delaying or even denying resources and care to those who are suffering from actual medical emergencies."

Well we live in a society today where when the weathermen tell us to expect some snow on Wednesday, people stampede to the hardware store to buy shovels and ice melt, then race to the supermarket to buy milk, bread, eggs, water and toilet paper, apparently people get a craving for French Toast when it snows……………then we get an inch of snow, of if we get 5 or 6 inches, it's all gone by Thursday anyway, but people act like they are going to be trapped in their homes for weeks.

And don't get me started on the media, they are always out interviewing snowplow drivers, people on the street, panicked maniacs at the super market, whipping everyone into a frenzy over nothing, they feed the hysteria with their overdramatization of basic news stories; it's winter, we get snow here in the northeast, we'll be fine.

It will be interesting to see the publics reaction as this thing spreads and more and more and more cases pop up.

Strap yourselves in, the ride is going to get bumpy.

So much for the "it is contained" lie here in the states.

Yes, folks, the media panic and apparent efforts to spread panic could wind up killing people. And that's just the tip of the iceberg such irresponsible talk could steer the world into. Think about that before you go off hyping something you don't understand either.

The opposite is true as well. Calling it a "hoax" is irresponsible and could directly lead to many deaths from the virus.

The opposite is true as well. Calling it a "hoax" is irresponsible and could directly lead to many deaths from the virus.

You are ill-informed. No one called the virus a "hoax." The political and media hype (and resulting stock market panic) about the current situation was called a "hoax." To state otherwise is to take the actual quote completely out of context.

Again, COVID-19 remains at this stage an extremely minor risk. So far in the United States, for example, a grand total of 1 person has died from the virus— a man known to have a severely compromised immune system. That is still an individual tragedy for that man and his family, but it hardly constitutes a society-destroying, wide spread pandemic. Last year roughly 61,000 people died in the US from the flu— yet no one declared that to be a pandemic or even an epidemic, much less a source of apocalyptic doom— because it wasn't one. And neither is this.

Actually, I'm not at all surprised to hear that the singular cases of the virus have appeared in a handful of major cities in this country . People move about, and there really isn't any way to stop them. I would also suggest that these very wide spread cases may actually be indicative of a lack of danger in the virus. We can't possibly know of cases which have not been tested for or discovered because they weren't actually severe. In other words, people got it, thought it was either a cold or the flu, and decided they didn't need to see a doctor, and subsequently recovered on their own, with no more than the aid of over-the-counter remedies. Such cases will go uncounted and unrecorded.

Again, there is little to fear hear except fear itself. If we panic, we will do harm. If we don't, very little harm will be done at all.

Don't worry, be happy?

You are ill-informed.

Sorry, you're right. The word "hoax" was not used alone, but in a phrase "New Hoax" as used at a rally. And the hoax may have only applied to people living in North Charleston, South Carolina.

We can't possibly know of cases which have not been tested for or discovered because they weren't actually severe. In other words, people got it, thought it was either a cold or the flu, and decided they didn't need to see a doctor, and subsequently recovered on their own, with no more than the aid of over-the-counter remedies. Such cases will go uncounted and unrecorded.

And don't forget the cases where they went to the doctor, possibly early, and didn't get a specific diagnosis and got better because they were given a reasonable treatment and followed the transmission precautions they were given.

Every infectious agent for every person is not specifically identified. I occasionally ask people if they have had Anthrax. They always say, "No". Then I ask if they have ever had got over bacterial infection with antibiotics but never asked to voluntarily fund the identification of the specific bacillus (or, most likely bacilli) that caused it. … Oh. … Hmmmm…

You are ill-informed.

Sorry, you're right. The word "hoax" was not used alone, but in a phrase "New Hoax" as used at a rally. And the hoax may have only applied to people living in North Charleston, South Carolina.

And you remain ill-informed, continuing to take the phrase out of context of what was said (which I already covered). I see no point in continuing a discussion with you on this, especially as it is political in nature (particularly on your part), not an actual discussion of COVID-19 and its risks or lack of the same.

There was a second death in Washington state, by the way, also the result of previous health issues.

I see no point in continuing a discussion with you on this, especially as it is political in nature (particularly on your part),

I beg to differ. I did not mention any political figure, nor was it I that raised the point to begin with.

You said:

To state otherwise is to take the actual quote completely out of context.

Then you went on to offer a defense of the statement by repeating the nonsensical talking point that it's all the media's fault. Dude, my original point was that when people talk about it as being part of a hoax, it is equally as dangerous.

Carry on.

There's been a rise today in cases announced and deaths in the US. Not huge, by any measure, and it appears the deaths are again confined to patients with underlying health issues, and largely elderly.

By the way, by comparison:
2009: Swine flu epidemic. Total deaths: 203,000 worldwide US: 12,649.
No panic.

2019-2020 Flu Season (through January 2020) Deaths, US: 4,800.
No panic.

COVID-19 US: 6 deaths.
PANIC!!!!!

If that's not proof that media-hype is driving this absurd over-reaction, I don't know what is. And you can call that by whatever word you like.

To be disrespectful of other individuals concerns regarding this issue and the potential health affects along with the potential disruption is in my opinion both unkind and irresponsible. Should we panic, No. Should we start looking at some alternatives to the current state of affairs, Yes.

My wife is a respiratory therapist at a major hospital in our city, so she's in the front line here, and they have no idea who has or hasn't got the virus in the wards they're treating – they don't have the testing kits yet to determine whose is infected.

Unfortunately, I'm preparing myself for getting the virus (from her) even though she's taking extra precautions now with all her patients.

In addition, our game group is aged, and we have quite a few friends who already have health issues, so as Fitzovich has mentioned above, we're thinking of what would be responsible to our membership, since we directly sponsor monthly public gaming events in our area.

Depending on your point of view, this is where somebody digs out the clip of a young Kevin Bacon saying "Remain calm--all is well!" right before the mob runs him over in "Animal House."

I also know people in the medical profession. Many of them are wearing masks during rounds. Metro ERs are packed.

As for myself, I'm still trying to figure out whether I caught swine flu ten years ago.

Good luck to us all.

Making sure all my reservations have free cancelation.

Not too worried. They say the elderly are the most vulnerable….

Uh-oh.

By the way, by comparison:
2009: Swine flu epidemic. Total deaths: 203,000 worldwide US: 12,649.
No panic.

Depends what you mean by panic. I remember your country declaring a national emergency in 2009 because of H1N1.

It's been a century since the 1918 flu pandemic, and yet it still looms large in our collective consciousness. It's only been 70 years since the last polio quarantine, and I remember the hollow look behind my mother's eyes when she spoke about them, but that menace has lost its teeth.

It's understandable that the prospect of a pandemic sends a chill. It's still way too early to know how bad this is going to get.

Panic never did anybody any good, except the time I pummeled the school bully out of sheer terror when I had nowhere to run. Go Ralphie!

Some perspective…

US combat deaths AWI – 6800
US combat deaths 1812 – 3700
US combat deaths MAW – 1700
US combat deaths ACW 1st Bull Run – 860. OK, that's high, but no reason to panic,…right?

Fear is understandable, but it is the mind killer, (come on December, Villeneuve.)

Keep your ears open and your powder dry, and take it as it comes. What else can we really do?

I think a month or two from now we in the US will look at this like we did SARS and Ebola. Very few infected and fewer dead.

Albeit we always have to be careful when it comes to this. The CDC, etc., are always looking for the next deadly virus, etc. That is part of what they do. Stop it before it starts, etc.

Regardless the media will surely find another crisis to keep us watching 24 hour news !

"Keep your ears open and your powder dry, and take it as it comes. What else can we really do?"

What we can do is be more self aware, people should be washing their hands ANYWAY, hopefully this will ramp that up and make people more aware of their surroundings.

My Mother used to harp on my Dad all the time about washing his hands, he always scoffed at it; he had an issue with his leg and had a tough time getting around, he basically left the house only for doctors visits the last four months of his life, on one of those visits, wheeled him into the building in a wheelchair, two days later he came down with the flu, it got worse, into the hospital he went, he seemed to bounce back, then it hit him again, he passed away from fluid in his lungs and a host of other issues, mainly with his heart and circulation.

WASH YOUR DAMN HANDS…………………..I also now carry a small bottle of hand sanitizer around, use it all the time, you all should too, it takes two seconds, stop touching your face and be self aware.

My only hope is people listen and since we knew this was coming, we are ahead of it.

Time will tell……………..

there is a middle ground between PANIC and "it is a media creation"

occupy that ground

larry

What he said, very sound advice………….don't scoff at it, but don't build up enough canned goods/water/toilet paper/hand sanitizer and other supplies to last 20 years either.

This snippet from an article in The Boston Globe today says it all;

"At this point in the coronavirus outbreak, we need two metrics: the risk of contracting the disease, which in Massachusetts is currently "low," per state officials; and the risk of contracting anxiety about the disease, which is currently move out of my way, lady, I saw that Purell first, per everyone doomsday prepping this past weekend.

If a person with the actual coronavirus can potentially infect people as far as 6 feet away, a person who's anxious about coronavirus can infect an entire Costco's worth of shoppers with second-hand hysteria."

So Larry said a couple of posts above, play both ends against the middle and hover in that zone……………..I should look into stock for Purell or any other hand sanitizer manufacturer right about now…………..mother of God.

Nothing to worry about … The US has just allocated $7.7 USD USD billion to preventing and curing the corona virus.

So rest easy …

I live in northern California. The COSTCO near me was inundated with people buying prepper supplies like toilet paper and canned goods. The cashier said it was a bigger crowd than they get before Christmas and Thanksgiving.

Wolfhag

Depends what you mean by panic. I remember your country declaring a national emergency in 2009 because of H1N1.

I mean a run on the stockmarket and all the other media hype stuff going on.

By the way, that national emergency was not declared until late 2009, long after the H1N1 virus was a known threat and after 1,000 US residents had died of the virus (many of whom were children). Perhaps there should have been a little more urgency then?

The current emergency was declared less than a month after the virus was identified, and almost immediately upon the advice to do so by the CDC.
But that wasn't an act of panic, and clearly isn't what I'm referring to.

Proof the Panik comes from Washington, DC:

I agree with corzin.

This is a nasty little virus which merits more concern than the regular Flu and other viruses. It hangs around on surfaces without dying much longer than the standard ones, making it much more communicable.

A little extra effort, something short of everyone wearing hermetically sealed hazmat suits with oxygen recirc, in avoiding picking up a communicable disease is warranted. That's what keeps something like this from becoming an epidemic or pandemic.

Johnny-Come-Lately preppers … pshaw! Whatever you think you should be ready for, you should already be ready for it.

youtu.be/Zn2HqLOFyFU

Women fighting over toilet rolls in an Aussie supermarket. Australian Police commented "…It isn't the Thunderdome, it isn't Mad Max."

Crazy.

I think it's the 14 day quarantine/lockdown that comes with contracting this virus that is the difference—and one reason people are laying in supplies. Nobody wants to invite two weeks of house arrest into their lives (or can afford such disruption). My work and professional colleagues are second guessing long scheduled trips to professional conferences that come around this time of year. They aren't "panicking" but are simply making a calculation on avoidable risks, not only the conferences, but the airports and travel, too. For some, the event will be important enough to go. For others, it will be more discretionary and they'll sit it out. It won't be any different for hobby conventions. The difference is that these events, by nature, are more discretionary, and therefore a larger percentage of attendance could be impacted.

Just got back from visiting my father (age 80). Interestingly, back in late November he came down with a persistent cough and shortness of breath, which the doctor originally thought was the flu. He spent a night in the hospital while being tested for flu (negative), then pneumonia (negative). They then pretty much punted and gave him an antibiotic (that later caused an allergic reaction producing a rash). The whole thing lasted several weeks, and they never identified a cause.

He's fine now, but it got me thinking, especially as my father runs an engineering firm with an international clientele, and attends yearly conventions in the engineering, fertilizer and chemical fields. He even travels abroad, though not for at least a year or so. Did he actually have a form of this? Probably not— it's more likely my father ran into something else entirely. But the coincidence of timing did make me consider the following:
Is it possible that COVID-19 has actually been spreading globally for months before the Chinese finally noticed a problem and isolated a cause? (That only happened in late December.) So cases got lumped in with a coinciding flu epidemic (symptoms are similar), and it's only now that actual tests exist and are being used, resulting in diagnosis of seemingly "unconnected" cases. If so, that's actually a good thing, because it would mean the mortality rate of this disease is considerably lower than thought, and the risk to the public of serious consequences is indeed very low.
Even if the above is not the case, it still remains true that the more cases are diagnosed, especially mild ones, ironically the better that news actually is, and the better we can target treatment and vaccines towards those who are at significant risk of complications— the elderly and those with underlying health conditions (particularly smokers).

Though I'm barely 39 (plus or minus) I have rotten lungs. So I'm staying home for Cold Wars. Bob's attending, with plenty of sanitizer and wipes. There are toys to buy….troops to kill…
C

The fuss seems out of proportion to the risk.

Yes, Cold Wars is a decent-size crowd--sort of. And yes, a lot of us are in the "higher mortality" category if we come down with something. But I will be very surprised if this reaches regular flu levels, and shocked if it manages to kill as many Americans as we finish off in traffic accidents each year. I suspect this is a slow news period.

Let's by all means take regular precautions, but I don't think we're at bunker stage yet, nor likely to be. On with the Con!

P.S. Has it occurred to anyone else that this may be a net life-saver in Europe and North America, as the relatively healthy well-nourished population gets flu shots, washes their hands and avoids unnecessary travel?

Cleo, is Bob allowed to travel without you? I thought your exploding collars went off if you got more than 200 meters apart.

Great comments. I agree, stay informed and don't panic.

The news thrives on fear. It drives ratings. And it drives me nuts.

My wife's convention in LA was just cancelled. I would think all the thousands already flying into and out of LAX, and driving and the millions who already live in CA. No worries there. But NO, you can't have one person fly in from another city and attend a convention.

I think it is all out of control.

Stock piling toilet paper. Good lord. Fighting over soap? Sheesh.

I think if there was any serious climactic event out there, the world would end in about 3 days.

"By the way, that national emergency was not declared until late 2009, long after the H1N1 virus was a known threat and after 1,000 US residents had died of the virus (many of whom were children). Perhaps there should have been a little more urgency then?
The current emergency was declared less than a month after the virus was identified, and almost immediately upon the advice to do so by the CDC.
But that wasn't an act of panic, and clearly isn't what I'm referring to."

True, the National Emergency declaration was in October. But Obama declared it a Public Health Emergency in April 26, 2009 just after 20 case and before a single death was reported. These Public Heath Emergencies unlock funds for anti Viral and other preparedness measures. On April 29 he asked for 1.5 Billion from Congress.

Unless one plans to gorge every day for two weeks, or is expecting to survive on nothing but prunes, one toilet roll should be perfectly adequate for a couple or small family, or at most two for a large family for the recommended fourteen day isolation period. One has to wonder what is going through the heads – the word minds seems out of place – of people wheeling trolleys piled high with 12 roll packs to the checkout.

The infotainment media here have reported a number of incidents of supermarket stupidity of the type described by Volleyfire, and that's precisely what it is; in equal measure with insanity. Idiots and lunatics (and idiotic lunatics and crazy idiots) have cleared shelves of toilet rolls in some supermarkets across the country, fought, and even drawn knives. Such people will always be with us, and the current 'crisis' has merely brought them out of their hiding holes and given them their moment of glory in the public spotlight; which of course, the media are only too happy to shine on them, for do their antics not make for superb entertainment?

@Henry Martini

1 TP Roll for an entire family for 2 weeks?

Kudos to your family for exemplary ammo discipline.

I have the fierce pride of living in Baltimore. Only in Baltimore could you have 2 women in a Walmart get into a dispute and start throwing merchandise from the shelves at one another. Walmart called the cops, who called the Fire Department, who evacuated the store and called in Hazmat.

One woman was throwing bleach. The other was throwing ammonia.

Better living thru chemistry.

@HMS Exeter, at first I thought your sentence beginning "only in Baltimore" was an overstatement (I'm from Scotland…), but the information about the merchandise raised the combat level. Good Luck!

My son lived within walking distance of a major medical research facility in Baltimore. He had to have pizza delivered to the office because no one would deliver in his home neighborhood four blocks away. Cars parked in that area had signs behind the windshields announcing "sound system already stolen from this car."

He told me the BAD neighborhood was two blocks further away.

Well at least it looks like the stock market is in the green today. And IMO I think it will continue this trend.

Reality Check – About 30,000 people in the US die of the flu every year. At this time only about 26 people in the US have died of COVID-19. Do the math …

Hmmm

So the Italians and Chinese are just over reacting?

For the demographic being killed early by this virus without any cure they might beg to differ.

For the health care systems close to collapse with the extra unplanned influx they are experiencing a different reality.

Let's hope the maths back you up in a couple of weeks.

;)

So the Italians and Chinese are just over reacting?

No but the numbers as small overall. And of course everyone should be taking precautions, obviously.

For the demographic being killed early by this virus without any cure they might beg to differ.

Sadly anyone killed by any disease, tobacco, drugs, a car accident, etc., would beg to differ too … But a cure and/or vaccine is being worked on.

For the health care systems close to collapse with the extra unplanned influx they are experiencing a different reality.

Yes but that is to be expected unfortunately as this was an un-forecasted "event". How quickly the reaction to "fix" this will tell. Just like Ebola …

Every year the US CDC and other agencies are looking for the next "pandemic" … It's not for lack of trying. But again as many things in life since we can't see the future even no matter how many compute models we run, etc. will happen …

Let's hope the maths back you up in a couple of weeks.

I think like SARS, Ebola, etc., we will do our best to "fix" this … but yes some will sadly die before that occurs. That is the reality …

Let me really muddy the waters …

Baltimore is a crazy quilt of neighborhoods. There are semi-magical dividing lines that separate them. Baltimore is a delightful place to live, so long as you know the geography and, as it does sometimes happen, the "no hostilities" lines haven't broken down.

Interesting BBC article about America and health care.

link

Let's hope you are one of the healthier ones or have a decent health care plan.

UK is about 2 weeks behind Italy I will pop back then to this thread to see if it is all a hoax….

Extra 10% of unplanned people needing urgent ventilation hitting hospitals with reduced staff, gotta be fine?

Let's hope you are one of the healthier ones or have a decent health care plan.

Me ? I've got the VA for my Healthcare. After serving 10+ years in the Army in the Infantry, '79-'90. Am I lucky … some would say yes, some would say no … But I ain't dead yet …

When I joined the military at 18-19 years old, I didn't think about healthcare when I got out of the Army or when I got old.

There were days when I didn't think we'd get out alive … I've Medevac'd some injured/wounded with holes in them. Everybody did their jobs, no panic, and most importantly no one died.

this thread to see if it is all a hoax….

Not a hoax it's really happening. But calmer heads should and will prevail. At least in the US, UK, etc., as again with what happened with SARS, Ebola, etc.

Extra 10% of unplanned people needing urgent ventilation hitting hospitals with reduced staff, gotta be fine?

Again calmer heads will prevail. If need be the US Military has Med and Decon, etc., units. May are being send to military bases for testing, quarantine, etc., now. But I don't think that sending the military into the streets, will be needed in this situation anytime soon if ever.

I do remember the US Military sending units to assist with the Ebola outbreak in Africa. That worked out … but yes … someone did and will die … sadly again reality …

But I'm betting e.g. most here on TMP, will not suffer or die from COVID-19 or even anyone they know will …

Holien, I'm not sure the BBC understands US health care any better than it understands the Presidential oath of office, which it also got wrong in that article. Might want to include in your news feed someone not themselves entirely dependent on tax money. It tends to distort one's view of government.

I haven't seen anyone on this thread (or elsewhere) suggesting Coronavirus is a hoax. I've seen a number who think the panic in the United States is disproportionate to the danger. In six months or a year, we'll know.