Tango01 | 17 Feb 2020 8:54 p.m. PST |
"Last week, there was a series of rather negative articles on Spikey Bits (and even worse facebook comments) regarding 3D printing that caused a bit of a stir in the 3D printing community. These started off with one regarding a Warhammer 40,000 tournament army that consisted of unpainted, 3D printed proxy models for an Adeptus Custodes army. It quickly devolved into the usual trope and gatekeeping from those who know next to nothing about 3D printing, accusing everyone who has a 3D printer of being a pirate, calling it IP theft, and comparing it to Chinese "yoyhammer" recasts. You can read it all here:…" Main page link Amicalement Armand
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UshCha | 17 Feb 2020 11:55 p.m. PST |
There are no model shops (to me GW do not count, zero interest and hobby stuff overproiced) so the game store issue does not arrise. Wargames clubs would and should discourage imfringement of copyright but that is all. 3D printeing just shifts emphasis to CADDS sculpters and 3D printer manufacture and encorages creativity. The latter is a definite gain. This whole text to be emphasises the over relaiance on big companies/shops to be the "organisers" of the hobby. The UK does not seem to have that impediment. |
Shagnasty | 19 Feb 2020 9:20 a.m. PST |
As a Neo-Luddite I dislike the concept of 3-D printing, especially at home. But then, I don't like the 21st Century as a whole. Bah humbug! |
Tango01 | 19 Feb 2020 11:02 a.m. PST |
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UshCha | 19 Feb 2020 12:31 p.m. PST |
Shagnasty, without such as yourself the English language would be poorer, we would never have created "Luddite". ;-). |
Brian Smaller | 19 Feb 2020 2:49 p.m. PST |
Unless I missed something, as cool as 3D printing is it seems that if you are doing it at home to make enough miniatures for say, a Black Powder army, you will be printing 24/7 for about a year. It is still very slow. Obviously higher grade commercial printers are faster but not many people will get one of those. |
UshCha | 20 Feb 2020 2:40 a.m. PST |
I don't paint I only colour and even I can't colour/paint fater than I can print, life/gameing gets in the way. |
dapeters | 20 Feb 2020 1:21 p.m. PST |
It kind of like the late 80's for PCs, for 3d printing |
Don Perrin | 20 Feb 2020 4:37 p.m. PST |
@Brian Smaller, if I have 6 x 28mm miniatures per print job, and one of those a day, and only print overnight Monday to Friday, I've got 300 miniatures in 10 weeks, and I took the weekends off! This is easy to do. Start your print at 9pm, before you go to bed, and come back after dinner the next day and clean up/start a new job. Little effort, low cost (likely 25 cents/model) and 300 miniatures in 10 weeks. Most Black Powder armies don't have 300 miniatures. Cheers! Don home3dprints.com |
UshCha | 21 Feb 2020 9:18 a.m. PST |
3D printing is revolutionizing wargames, not ruining it. You can have a variety of models, materiel and equipment that is unrivaled. Yes specialist gear will either be costly or time intensive but it is now possible. Conventional sratch building is great for the odd 1 off unique model or feature but is impractical if you need 10 or 20. This is beyond the range of scrtach building and too small in many cases to justify casting (never the standard of a good injection molding anyway) or an injection mold. However in steps 3D printing into this critical blind spot, truly we live in the golden age of wargameing. |
Tango01 | 21 Feb 2020 12:21 p.m. PST |
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The H Man | 25 Feb 2020 4:00 p.m. PST |
Disagree. Golden age of plastic wargaming, maybe, but then again, of course not. What would you call it when printers are in most homes and can zap out multi coloured figs at 10 a second? Teflon age? Save it for then. Good luck. A lot of wargamers may not have many armies, so the cost associated with a fancy computer plus a fancy printer plus files, so on, will be much more than just buying a couple of armies from a store or on line. Not to mention most people couldn't be fussed. Bad enough when a company changes the rules, let alone their files, requiring an entire comp/printer upgrade just to print the latest tank. There is your ideal world. Happy printing. |
Legion 4 | 26 Feb 2020 9:15 a.m. PST |
3d printing is a good thing for the industry. E.g. Just like when cars became mainstream in the US. The newer tech put a lot of wheelwrights, blacksmiths and farriers out of business. It's another case of evolve or die. |
UshCha | 26 Feb 2020 1:25 p.m. PST |
H Man, Platinum age, when we have colored fast print figurea and finally the Diamond age is when we can have colored holographic figures . Imagine perfect colored figure, no need to paint and indestructible, truly the Diamond age. |
The H Man | 01 Mar 2020 2:00 a.m. PST |
Sounds like the bording age to me. Besides prepainted figs are already available. Also please define perfect coloured? |
UshCha | 01 Mar 2020 3:21 a.m. PST |
H man, Pre-painted are expensive, printed 3D would cost perhaps 20% more than single colour,(based on my current best estimate (Prusa Mk 3S and alternative material head)). Limited to 5 coloures but still perfect for gameing, (high contrast. |
The H Man | 01 Mar 2020 3:30 p.m. PST |
Again define perfect. As a commission painter, I see some people wanting very basic schemes, others desire a much more complex approach. Prints I have seen in colour appear wishy-washy (probably from scans), but your welcome to post a pic of what your talking about for scrutiny. Yes you can print your figures for games(as long as your opponent agrees to you using them), but it is just a gimmick. You can technically microwave up an entire dinner party, but it's still a poor substitute. Home 3d printers are just for fun and not to be taken too seriously. |
UshCha | 01 Mar 2020 6:33 p.m. PST |
H man we clearly we have little t0 nothing in common. Even now I am steadily replacing my old metal army with much improved, more accurate, more robust, and lighter 3D printed army; so what can be taken seriously, differs in the extreeme between us. To me it is the older other forms that should not be be taken too seriously, being overweight, and lacking the subtlety of design possible using 3D printing. |
The H Man | 02 Mar 2020 2:16 a.m. PST |
Those "older other forms" typically use actual artistic sculptures, as opposed to computer engineered files. Are you also suggesting that the basis for almost the entire miniature wargaming hobby is not to be taken seriously??? The fact most manufacturers still use these techniques escapes you??? I suspect the old lead soldier will out last even the 3d printers yet to come. Many people like the weight of metal, just like gold, arrgh. I can see your not a painter, subtly in plastics and prints is a royal pain. There is a reason models have exaggerated details, and it has nothing to do with technology. We are truely on opposite sides of the coin here. My sides crowded, how's yours? |
UshCha | 03 Mar 2020 8:51 p.m. PST |
A seems pretty full on my side and increasing. Like you say we are separated by a common hobby. |
dapeters | 05 Mar 2020 9:59 a.m. PST |
I suspect like everything tech-wise it will get faster, better quality and cheaper with time. The business/artistic-end will be in selling the figure files to print. And all of this is happening right now. |
The H Man | 06 Mar 2020 5:15 p.m. PST |
Your suggesting computer engineering is artistic??? A nerve has been struck. With the exception of "anything can be art", in which case we would not have a word to differentiate such things, computer generated images are not art. Groan. Reasons. Fine. Apart from general definitions art: Can be produced without the requirement of multibillion dollar corporations or millions of people. Or otherwise expensive apparatus. I can raid a bee hive or dig some clay an be sculpting with a stick in perhaps minutes. One would be years before anything resembling a electronic computer could even be a notion. Art is an original peice, not a copy. So a metal mini is only a copy of the original green master, for example. With cgi the original image is on screen/disc not a printed copy. Like a photo is the original negative, not the glossy print. As for paintings, art hangs on the wall and is not printed in books. An artist can touch the art work and in turn be touched by it. In fact you should be able to make the art with just the material and your hands. Painting, sculpture, so on allow this. CGI does not, you are only programming a machine. So on, though there is much more. CGI can produce quick, cheap pictures and data ideal for mass market applications. However it is not art, just computer engineering, as skilled and fun as it can be. |
UshCha | 06 Mar 2020 9:49 p.m. PST |
Hman, they all use tools, sculpture even at model scale use tools. Artists use paint bought from a shop, none of the gramd masters dug up pigment and painted using just their fingers and they, horror of horrors, bought their paint brushes and canvas! Computer sculpting is just using a diffrent tool. No diffrence. |
The H Man | 07 Mar 2020 12:17 a.m. PST |
You miss the point, er points. You could not make cgi anything without millions of people and complex mechanisms. Unlike physical sculpture, painting, so on. You can use gold plated tools, it's still no different to a stick or hands. Complex mechanisms such as computers that allow no contact are very different. There is no physical contact or feeling between creator and medium. I can't think of an art form that does not allow this. CGI itself is not a thing, just a manipulation of a mechanism. A technique, not an art. Art does not require electricity, or any power external to the human body or pure sun light, though you can sculpt in the dark. Ah, well, so on. Think about it as long as I have and you'll understand. |
UshCha | 07 Mar 2020 3:05 a.m. PST |
Nope, I am sure graphic artists, and the sculpers at Workshop would dissagree. Digital sculpturing is and art as is water colours neither of which do you use phisical contact with the hands. New age new art, 3D printing frees the scultor from the limitations of casting. |
The H Man | 11 Mar 2020 3:41 p.m. PST |
Water colour is paint and paper, of course you can use your hands! Pre school 101! Of course another point is that you can give anyone, even some animals apparently, paint or clay and they can use it right away. Many people can't even turn on a computer and it takes a lot of teaching to use one effectively, let alone specific programmes and auxiliary devices. Art is more natural than that. Then theres cost. There are people in the world making and selling art, but can't afford modern technology. Not just 3rd world countries, either, though they certainly represent. While I'm at it, the blind can't easily see a computer screen, yet can manipulate clay, as could most physically disabled people. Art is not exclusive. Art has been around for almost, if not all, the entire human existence, even longer if you ask some, and will endure. Already electronic related machines have been all but lost within a life time, so CGI may yet pass. Only the future knows that one for sure, but looking at the past for reference and considering the blink of an eye electronics have been around for and the constant threat of global upset, my money's on art. Give yourself some time and think it over, don't just jump to conclusions. |
UshCha | 12 Mar 2020 2:50 a.m. PST |
H Man you have just not made it to the 20Th centuary. Printers now cost £200.00 GBP and with that you can print an Army of great sixe for £20.00 GBP so its cheaper than an army. My Kids and grandkids do hand prints but that to me is not the full definition of art. Clarly we cannot even agree a definition of art; agreement about 3D is just fine print, when we cant even begin to agree fundamantals. |
dapeters | 16 Mar 2020 8:50 a.m. PST |
So if one uses "Paint 3D" to create a landscape that is not Art? |
N Drury | 16 Mar 2020 9:38 a.m. PST |
David Hockney regards his iPad as another tool which which he can create art – YouTube link link |
The H Man | 19 Mar 2020 5:13 p.m. PST |
If paint 3d is a computer program, that's correct. You would be programming a computer, nothing more. An iPad is not just a tool. Like most gadgets and programmes, it took thousands of people, millions of hours and billions of dollars to produce (or there about). Which art does not require. Again your programming, more engineering than art. Though both can create cost effective images for various modern commercial applications. |
dapeters | 20 Mar 2020 12:44 p.m. PST |
Is a collage art? Honestly I think your confusing the means withe the work? And I think your confusing fine art with design, It almost like saying a only Poems written with pen and paper are legit and one written on a PC are not? |
The H Man | 21 Mar 2020 10:15 p.m. PST |
You could go out and use leaves and feathers for a collage. You touch it. It's free. Anyone can arrange things by themselves. So on. The means and work are entwined. That is art. Poems are simply an arrangement of words, representing sounds. How you choose to note them doesn't matter as long as it's legible. Poems are meant to be read, not looked at. |
dapeters | 24 Mar 2020 7:15 a.m. PST |
I thought art was about a feeling it engenders on oneelf? |
N Drury | 24 Mar 2020 10:16 a.m. PST |
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La Belle Ruffian | 14 Aug 2020 9:05 a.m. PST |
As an update, has anyone purchased a printer during the recent 'time at home' for many of us? Just musing on multi-tasking. One thing that comes to mind that as time goes by 3-D printers will be able to be used for lots of other purposes within the home – why do I need to go to the shop for a small, funny-shaped piece of plastic for my bike/chair/kitchen, or get it posted when I can print off a copy. As a consequence as they become easier to use, with greater utility, the more reasons arise to buy one as its not just for one hobby. |
UshCha | 15 Aug 2020 6:40 a.m. PST |
La Belle Ruffian. I have just bought my third printer but it is yet to arrive. Due next 3 or 4 weeks. I have always used my printer for DIY bits from blanks for hosepipes, connectors for Tumble dryer outlets, bed support repair parts for my caravan, a protective box camera and more. Its a vital tool for lots of bits. Even PLA is a perfectly workable material for many jobs PETG is better and suffers none of the problems of PLA. |
Sancho Panzer | 17 Aug 2020 8:37 a.m. PST |
La Belle, I discovered 3D printing in lockdown. I bought an Ender 3 in October 2018 but could neither master it nor find anything worth printing, so it sat on a shelf unused until I was inspired by a club member's prints. In a few weeks I've printed hundreds of 1/144 models, mainly early WW2 Soviets, because they're 'a bit rough'- like the models! That said, the models are better than most of the metal ones around this scale and I'm very pleased with them. I'm fortunate in working from home, so tending the printer every few hours isn't a problem, but painting as fast as I can print is. |
UshCha | 18 Aug 2020 2:44 a.m. PST |
Sanco Panzer "Welcome to the dark side,soon you will learn the true power of the printer young Jedi". |
The H Man | 19 Aug 2020 2:20 a.m. PST |
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Gauntlet | 20 Aug 2020 7:15 a.m. PST |
I bought my ender3 a few months ago and have printed ~50 1/144 ww2 vehicles, buildings, and a bridge. Still on my first $20 USD filament spool. I've been playing a homebrew wargame entirely with my printed models. (Using chits for infantry until victrix releases their line). |