"grade distinction on a bicorne of french napoleonic general" Topic

I'm looking for info on the grade distinctions for french generals bicorne. Marechal de camp, Lieutenant-general,..
Who is wearing white plumes, black plumes, golden edged bicorne, no golden edge,..
Is their a ranking system and does anyone has info in this topic?
Again, thanks in advance for any help.

Regards,

Luc

From "French Infantry and Artillery, 1795- 1812" by R.K. Riehn:

"…often with gold braiding along the edges. Cockade…held by a golden loop and button. For marshals and generals of divisions, usually white plumage along the edges; black plumage for brigadiers. On parade…,and before 1800, on almost any occasion red, white, and blue plumes of ostrich feathers topping the cockade."

For field grade and company officers "As above, but no plumage or edge trim."

From 1963 so there is likely to be more recent information out there. Hope this helps a little.

I have the same info from another source. I had not remembered the Riehn covered the topic.

I remember when Riehn's two books were about all there was in English on French Napoleonic uniforms. I met him once at Peter Blum's, The Soldier Shop, on Madison Avenue in NYC. He looked just like Hollywood casting for a Panzer commander.

Tom

Style of pattern and width of 'lace', also button, and twisted cord varied from time to time, fashion, and rank level.
Also the 'style' of wear- ceremonial, full dress, undress, and what comes as tenue de route and campaign wear.

As well, in the Empire period "Marechal de camp, Lieutenant-general" did not exist. These are royalist period titles.

Rousellot provides the most comprehensive catch-all for Empire of course.
d

you will find most of your answers in

Réglement concernant les uniformes des Généraux et officiers des États-Majors des Armées de la République Francaise
Thermidor An VI de la République, 1798

link

there is a ranking system of course, the plumes, the sash and the embroidery arrangements on the coats and the panache at the hat, like white for général en chef – to give him more distinction to the grade of a général de division.

actually the linf from Gallica is better, showing the plates unfolded

link

Thank you gentleman for all the assistance and info.
@ SHaT1984, I use the saint mont-saint-jean site allot for reference. The site uses the grades of Marechal de Camp and Lieutenant-general.
link
Is this wrong or did they carry this rank?
I'm looking for information on the dress during the 100 day campaign, more specific the battle at Waterloo.
Thanks to von Winterfeldt for the link, I will read trough this document with interest.
Regards

According to page 676 Appendix A in Elting's "Swords around a Throne"

Ranks in ascending order:

General de Brigade (in 1814 following the Bourbon restoration, this rank reverted to its old Royal Army name Marechal de Camp, which continued in partial use during the Hundred Days.

General de Division (in similar fashion this rank became "Lieutenant General" in 1814

Marechal

H Malibrans Guide a l'usage des artists et costumiers "Des Uniformes de l'Armée francaise de 1780 a 1848" is the definitive source, other than extant regulatory descriptions (of which not a lot exist in clarity).

I have the Le Voltigeur facsimile reprints 1983, 2 vols.
regards d

H Malibrans Guide a l'usage des artists et costumiers "Des Uniformes de l'Armée francaise de 1780 a 1848" is the definitive source, other than extant regulatory descriptions (of which not a lot exist in clarity).

No it isn't – it is a good starting point but not definitive – no excuse not to try to find out existing regulations and laws and consult them.

looking at the golden lace as such, it seemed to be identical for all generals, the plume would give a hint of the rank when worn, here from the Bardin regulation

url=https://postimages.org/]

‌

and then what Vernet made out of it

url=https://postimg.cc/1VKhb4YS]

‌

needless to say there a lots of modification when being on campaign, between campaign dress and parade dress etc.

Would this be worth bying:

link ???

Regards

this is only the album, black and white drawings and legends to it, far more useful would be the text volume which is quite massive.

by the way those Bardin plates are available on the net for download – so I wouldn't was my money to buy the album of Malibran's work.

All ready did so, thank you for the link @von Winterfeld. Like allways a lot of contradiction of who is wearing what and when. I'm trying to work out from which rank onwards the bicorne has gold lace and which rank had the white and which black feathers. I'm using mostly perry miniatures and a lot of the higher officers have lace on the bicorne so I'm looking for the headdress regulations for brigade,divisional en corps commanders.

Regards

Lucien Rousselot:
General de Brigade & Division

Left hand illustration – left to right: General de Brigade; Commander General; General de Division; General de Division; General de Brigade.

Marechal:

Left to right: Lannes; Oudinot; Ney; Bessieres; Bernadotte.

Etats Major:

Left to right: Adjutant commander; Adjutant commander; Staff officer; Adjutant commander; Adjutant commander; General staff; Staff officer.

Aide de Camps (right hand illustration):

Left to right (top & then bottom rows)
: Adjutant 1809; Adjutant to General de Brigade 1810-12; Personal Adjutant to Commanding General; Personal adjutant to General de Division; Personal adjutant 1813; Personal adjutant 1813.

@Prince of Essling, a very big thank you for the uniform plates. I`ve seen most of them on the net but usually their is no description of the rank of the officers involved.
Thank you to all the other members that shared information on my question.
Time to put all the info together in a clear overview. Got one remaining question about the use of the golden lace edge of the bicorne in combination with feathers. Sometimes no feathers, sometimes no lace edge. Is this the difference between field uniforms (campaign) and dress uniform (grand uniform)?
Regards

I would opt for gold lace for grande tenue, for the hat, this lace seemingly was identical to all general grades and regardless what else uniform would be worn, one would recognize a general.
Otherwise it was to the whim of the general what to use and dress in the field, in the Armée du Rhin, in the French Revolution, it was quite common just to wear a dark blue coat without any distinction at all.
The small white feathers along the rim seem to be also an indication of a général en chef or maréchal de France.

Close.
How many don't own Rousellot AND his notes, which frankly are invaluable to understanding the drawings?

Would any general appear without a gold lace border on their chapeaux? Rarely I'd say. A pure undress version, yes they existed. The gold was replaced I believe in many grades of officer by a similarly ornate and wide black silk lacing/ ribbon, recalling their laurel leaves etc. ornaments.

White was a colour used to designate, as on Winterfeldt cites- Mareschal d'Empire, Generales-en-Chef, certain Etat-Major (not counting Imperial dignitaries).
The lace of the former was 1/3rd larger than that for Genereaux de Division.

The long, tall plumes and 'panache' (an ornamental plume of feathers, tassels, or the like, especially one worn on a helmet or cap) went gradually out of fashion (exc Murat!) and the fringed feather border became the norm. This happened according to Rousellot as the tall panache was 'inconvenient' in winds!

Black feathers for Gens de brigade et Divisions; white as above. However in summary, he states- "No longer able to distinguish rank, Genereaux-en-Chef 'adopted' for their chapeaux the white feather border… and the undress hat, furnished with plumes and with or without a black silk stripe (lace), were often worn on campaign."

NB: On sites using incorrect terminology, whether nationally significant or not, just shows the caution that needs to be exercised using third-party sites.
regards
davew

@SHat1984,

Thank you for the indept reply. So again it is what the regulation states and what was worn on campaign seems to be another mather.
Above Gen de Brigade and Division possible white fringed feather border, For Gen en chef, Gen de Division and Brigade black silk lace border on campaign?

Regards

After reading through the advice and info from the above members, I started to look further on the internet with more specific search terms and got my books out to search for more information. I`m looking specifically for uniforms and organization during the 100 day campaign.
I came to a list of ranks and positions/functions with their insignia. The following (questions) came up;
Organization: I started with the organization of an field army down to brigade.
Army commander, usually a Marshal(de L`empire) with 5 silver stars or crossed batons, sash gold and white or just gold?. White feathers and gold lace on the chapeaux. Apparently their are other appointments for a army commander: Général d'armée,Général-en-chef, which would be a general de division appointed to this function. What is the difference between those terms? Would his sash be also gold and white and carry five silver stars and chapeaux with the white feather border or would he keep his gold and red sash as?
Next level is Corps d`armee;
Again the command seems to be held by a marshal (de L`empire)or an appointed general de division under the personal title of Général de corps d'armée or Général-en-chef.
What colour for the sash for Marechal or General de corps and how many stars? I found contradicting results, but I assume 4 stars? Would this also apply for a Marechal in command of an corps? Chapeaux for marechal and General-en-chef with white feather border and gold lace?

Lots of questions but It would be very nice to have a document as reference with the organisation and uniforms of an army during the 100day campaign. If anyone wants to browse trough the draft version, I can mail a copy.

Regards and again thank you for all the assistance

NO 4 or 5 stars period.
The 'regalia' of a marescal was predetermined. The additional, 1/3rd larger lace on chapeau and design showed it.

Every marescal was a General of Division in campaign. They may also have been general-en-chef, determined by decision of their masters, not by seniority.

A generals chapeau is a generals chapeau is a generals chapeau!

Added distinctions (plumes and colours/ brush) gave that.
As cited elsewhere today- the full dress chapeau ordered worn by his Grenadier à Cheval were by decree of l'Empereur were "general officers quality".

Your late campaign desires would it seems lead to less showy, plumes etc. dress. That doesn't make it wrong, even cloudy days had spots of sunshine.
Good luck.

@SHaT1984
Thanks,
When I started to look for uniform details I went first to google and one of the hits that cam up was link
Hence my question about the stars. I know that its not the most reliable source now. I also came across some pictures of epaulettes du marechal with 5 stars but no text, but obviously they where not 1ere empire. So I figured that a lieutenant general commanding an army would carry 4 stars but thats also incorrect as you pointed out.
regards