"Rules for games with 1/1200 ships?" Topic

I've been looking at the old Airfix and Revell 1/1200 ship kits lately and they are things of nostalgic beauty. I played a few games with miniatures this size years ago and quite fancy more, but…they're too big aren't they?

Does anyone game in this scale and what sort of actions do you fight?

Although Hood versus Bismarck on the floor was a blast back in the day, I can't do floors. In some ways the optimal scale look to me to be something like 1/1800 – bigger and better than 1/2400 but not as bulky as 1/1200.

What are the options?

I still use Seapower II and 1200s on a table top. It works okay for me.

I'm about to acquire some 1/1200 models to use as targets for air attacks. Does that count?

I've never seriously contemplated 1/1200 scale ships for any actions with long ranges. They work fine for MTB and maybe even DD night actions, but for actions at multiple nautical miles of range the scale distortion becomes hopelessly funky. I gave away a 1/1200 Prinz Eugen to a friend playing Action Stations in 1/1200 scale, where it has served as a beastly target of extremely risky torpedo runs.

- Ix

@ Yellow Admiral

I hear you. I like the scale but the available models in 1/1200 appear decidedly biased towards things you can't easily use on a tabletop.

Ark Royal / Airfix
Bismarck / Revell
Bismarck / Airfix
Hood / Airfix
Hornet / Revell
Iowa / Zvezda
King George V / Revell
King George V + Dorsetshire / Lindberg
Littorio / Revell
Missouri / Revell
Musashi / Revell
Prinz Eugen / Airfix
Roma / Revell
Shinano / Zvezda
Shinano / Revell
Suffolk / Airfix
Tirpitz / Revell
Titanic / Revell
Tribal Class / Airfix
Yamato / Zvezda
Yamato / Revell
Yorktown / Zvezda
Yorktown / Revell
Zuikaku + Yamato / Lindberg

Apart from two heavy cruisers and a destroyer everything else is a carrier or battleship.

Anyone know what scale the Skytrex Triton models are? I can't tell if they're 1/1200 or 1/1250.

warlord are about to release ''victory at sea'' a ww2 naval game

I used Airfix and Revell for Fletcher-Pratt games but as the club no longer has access to a church hall I don't have the space to open fire at about thirty feet apart! For aircraft I go up a size and use 1/600 looks better than 1/1200.

There are a few other choices.

You can get a selection of light forces from the Figurehead 1/1250 Coastal Forces line ( lastsquare.com or magistermilitum.com ).

There's an ever-growing selection of 1/1200 and 1/1250 ships on Shapeways, including cruisers, DDs, carriers and tarrgets (cargo ships).

Alnavco still claims to produce the old Superior 1/1200 line (at least some of it), and keep a bit of stock of many other more expensive 1/1250 lines, a lot of which is smaller than capital ships. I'm about to test their ordering process.

There are a few other places to get 1/1250 lines too, if you spend time looking around.

All of this kind of makes a separate point, though: collecting fleets in 1/1200-1/1250 scale involves some serious investment in time and money. It's bound to become as much about the collecting as the gaming.

- Ix

As far as rules:

The only games I've ever seen specifically written for 1/1200 scale were variations on Fletcher Pratt and a couple home-brewed games.

Given the scale distortion problems, I'd suggest that a gridded game would also work, as long as you don't mind ships side-by-side in the hex/square together. E.g., the tactical system from the Avalanche Press GWAS and SWWAS series might work.

- Ix

4th Cuirassier,

I have Russo-Japanese, Jutland, and War Plan Orange in 1/1200. War Plan Orange assumes that the Washington Naval Conference did not occur so, for example, Lexington and Saratoga are BCs. In all games, I have CLs and DDs grouped on single bases by squadron or flotilla. The Bs, BBs, BCs, and CAs are individually based. We have access to the required floor space, use laser tools to speed range determination, sometimes use admiralty tables for the players and umpires (in stocking feet) to execute fleet orders, and use scenarios that depict portions of the naval action in each of the three eras. I have only once played the entire O/B for Jutland and the entire O/B for War Plan Orange….both weekend efforts. The rules employed have varied from "Naval Thunder" or "Seapower" to "Seekrieg IV" with the latter being the favorite. Data is modified to scale where not already provided.

While I certainly enjoy the convenience of 1/2400, there is nothing like a fleet of 1/1200 ships deployed and cleared for action!

Hope this provides some encouragement for your worthy project….

FloatingDoc, can you point me at the laser tools you use as tapes are a real bind.

There was an old game called "Kamakazi". It was in a magazine called Battleplan, I think. Steve Jackson helped write it.
You could use any scale ships. I believe it called for 1200 scale, but I use 1/700.
The ships are laid out in a battle formation and the Japanese aircraft come in in large waves trying to fly thru the flak and CAP to sink the US ships. You could have a jeep carrier and some destroyers (usually Fletchers) and maybe a cruiser.
A real fun and challenging game. Took maybe 30-40 minutes. You could play 2 or 3 in an evening.
I was working on a 1942 version and a variant where US aircraft are trying to dive bomb and torpedo Japanese ships.

Each scale you might consider come with different tradeoffs. If you were totally nuts you could play with 1/700 scale models from basic makers like Tamiya, all the way up to Combrig. The downsides here are cost and space problems.

At 1800 scale you can get table ready models from War st Sea and 3d prints. The selection here is limited, and ever the really basic WaS niels ain't cheap.

At 1200/1250 scale the selection expands mightily, but cost is still a significant issue and fleet actions are space restrictive.

At 2400 the availability explodes and the cost becomes manageable. Space is also less of a problem.

At 3000 availability is still high, tho detail starts to suffer. The main 3000 scale provider is in the UK, and while his business model seems rooted in 1965, he is very responsive, and models get shipped superfast. Japanese companies make a fair few 3000 scale models with good detail, but they dont seem intended for gaming as much as collecting, and may be too fragile.

4800 and 6000 scale are the easiest on the space issue, and many swear by them, but I'm over 40 and I just can't see them.

There are lots of rules, too many to list. Almost all can be scaled to whatever model scale you want. Indeed, most rules ignore model sizes to a large degree and the scale adjustment has to do with range measurements.

Not a lot of people game 1200/1250 scale anymore. In the US, 2400 is the norm. In Europe and Japan, 3000.

Enjoy

In re rules.

All rules sets are a balancing act of ease and speed of play vs. Rivet counting historical accuracy.

The simplest rules are basic boardgame rules like Avalon Hill's Midway.

An easy, but remarkably robust rules set is General Quarters II. GQ III is much more complicated.

Swapowers II and III were a fair balance. They are out of print commercially, but I think I saw someone post a link from which they could be downloaded.

Fletcher Pratt are super old, and a bit basic, but I'm sure you could get a set from a TMPer.

Seekrieg IV is super accurate, but very involved. I wouldn't try more than about 4 ships per player. You need trigonometry to resolve torpedoes.

Seekrieg V is the top of the heap. Its excellent, but I wouldn't try more than 1 ship per player.

There are scads of others. These are the ones I've played.

Question; Does ALNAVCO still exist and do they still sell 1/1200 WW2 and WW1 ships?

Yes Alnavco still exists.
alnavco.com/warship.htm

Maybe look at the free Heart of Leviathan WW1 battleship rules for adaption – they use "truncated" 1/1200 dreadnought models on a 3 x foot playing area, with some very clever rules mechanics…

Rules are at the bottom of the landing page…

Alnavco still exists, and is, evidently, experiencing something of a resurgence. After years of adding nothing to their 1200 scale line except for some interwar planned but "never were" capital ships, and having a limited stock of 1200 scale models on hand, and all but abandoning their 2400 scale line, they've begun upgrading their 1200 scale destroyers (about 12 so far), released 3 new Kongo iterations, and revivified their entire 2400 scale models.

Interesting. Thanks all.

The first naval games I played were with 1/1200 models on an 8 x 4 table. The rules were based on those outlined in the Barry Carter naval wargaming book. Nice models, but the result did not look plausibly like a naval battle.

Then I switched to 1/3000 WW1 using GQ2. Between Navwar's 1965 business model issues and the so-so detail, I am disinclined to return to 1/3000. One thing that might persuade me is if the Japanese producers were to make more of these:

link

With this one, for example, you get fourteen ships including six carriers and deck decals for £15.00 GBP
link

There appear to be no Allied subjects in this range though.

I've bought the GQ3 rules and although I've only read and not played them, I am not convinced – seems fussier for no obvious gain. The main innovation I added to GQ2 was using a spreadsheet to work out distances. You just measure how far along and across the table the firer and target are, enter these as X,Y co-ordinates, and Pythagoras works out the range but without telling you what it is.

The prettiness of 1/1200 models is nice but yikes, these things get pricey once you step outside the mainstream brands. Old Triang Minic 1/1200 can be had for very reasonable money on the 'bay, and cover subjects the above do not, but GHQ Micronauts, wow – £10.00 GBP, £12.00 GBP per ship. You can buy Japanese 1/700 for that money. You can buy Airfix 1/600 for that money. You just need a bigger house.

I'm still fairly new to the 1/1200 scene, but one thing I've noticed is that the really nice ones (e.g. Navis, Neptun) are only about as nice overall as the nicer 1/2400 models (GHQ, WTJ). For me, that makes the extra cost and storage space and ground scale distortion seem like a poor trade-off for gaming purposes.

Side note: WTJ has also branched into 1/1250 scale, and recently also begun making a few WW2 models of stuff you can't get otherwise in 1/1200ish scale. The cost of WTJ 1/1250 models is fantastically high, but still under the prices of the best 1/1200ish metal model makers.

- Ix

I use 1/1250 scale for Pre-Dreadnoughts only. Naval Thunder rules work fine.

Scale only matter in relation to the gaming space. If you can afford a huge space (5m x 8m? of tables) then anything will do.
otherwise: battleships sort of disconnected from the smaller stuff, can be with a "void" representing additional space in between if the sides are neatly facing each other.

Otherwise: coastal/nightly actions with stuff that can't see far/ can't shoot far away.

Carrier forces can be, showing a sort of static formation with the planes moving about in relation to it. One side only at a time.

Beware of more than 3-4 times space compression for destroyers etc. as you will end with them taking way too much space and the ridiculous result of the last ship in a division hardly shooting in front of the first.

BillyNM,

Sorry for the delay….I was on the road.

We use a couple of the Stanley TLM330 Tru-Laser devices…overkill but easy to use and accurate against a cardboard backdrop (12" x 12") propped up behind the ship you are measuring to. That said, I'm sure you could find a cheaper alternative.

Hope this helps….

Cuirassier, I faced exactly the same dilemma. In the end I stick to 1/3000 and GQ3 for battles involving cruisers and above (give it a chance, much more realistic but still as easy as GQ1-2 IMHO).But I also will now try 1/1200 for DDs vs DDs/TB or, if predread, also cruisers with Seekrieg 5. Seems detailed enough to make even few DDs battles interesting, but still have to try. Found a cheap copy on ebay…

@ Valerio

I have been more or less convinced by this discussion not to bother with 1/1200. Maybe for small vessel actions as you note. I was thinking 1/2400 instead but then the models cost about the same, and 1/3000 are not very good quality generally (though OK at table top distances).

One of the 1/700 scale Japanese kits includes a Japanese destroyer escort, a Liberator and a US submarine.

link

The destroyer's only 14cm long so that's a solo wargame right there…

If you look for ship recognition models from WW2 you'll find lots of different ships at 1200, but they're simple models and the price varies significantly. Best part is they are historically linked to the war.

Well I just like the kits, really, but there seems no way to use them in a game. Unless maybe one of those twin-table games where each side manoeuvres on its own table against aircraft and stuff.

I have literally hundreds of 1/1200 scale ships.

I intend to use GQ3 with double cm scale for small destroyer actions.

extreme battleship range becomes 6 metres (30K yards)

visible range is around 4metres… (2oK yards)

destroyer ranges are less than that.

In saying that, I dont have any space problem.

A brief followup to one of my earlier comments. I said:

Alnavco still claims to produce the old Superior 1/1200 line (at least some of it), and keep a bit of stock of many other more expensive 1/1250 lines, a lot of which is smaller than capital ships. I'm about to test their ordering process.

I tried to place an order with Alnavco for a selection of Superior 1/1200 WWII Japanese transports and DDs. I got this response:

Thank you for your order. The Marus are out of production and the J605 is the only DD from your list we have in stock today. Attached is today's "in stock" list. We can also back order unavailable items -Marus are not scheduled for 2020.

This was a month ago on Feb 20, well before the pandemic was shutting down the economy.

--

Subsequently, I ordered a selection of substitutes, stand-ins, and good-enoughs from Shapeways and from the Figurehead 1/1250 line instead, which all arrived recently.

I also ordered scratchbuilt models of the Nisshin and Chitose (seaplane carrier versions) from our own Virtualscratchbuilder, literally the only way I could get either of them in this scale. He also offered to build me any specific DDs I want, but I'm trying not to go overboard with this scale, and I think I have enough to run test games of air-to-surface attacks now in two theaters (Solomons campaign and Operation Torch).

It is just expensive and difficult to build a collection in this scale.

- Ix

One thing I have learnt over the years is never start a force in a scale unless everything you'll need is all available.

It is just expensive and difficult to build a collection in this scale

Agreed.. in fact in the end I went for a 1/1800 motley force of gunboats, DDs and a very few light cruisers, supposed to be the two half navy of a south american country involved in a civil war..

1/1200 scale is my personal insanity….

I have a lot of wooden models

I belong to a campaign with 14+ dedicated naval gamers. Our latest campaign started 20 years ago. Time flies when you're having fun. We play with 1:1200 & 1:1250 scale ships on the floor. Stocking feet is required. Each player in the campaign represents a specific navy, so they only need to acquire models to represent the ships in their navy list. We use a modified Seapower ruleset with simultaneous movement and firing. We write our move and fire orders in advance, including range estimates.

With regards to the cost, if you buy new ships, it can be expensive. But if you buy used, you can definately find good deals. I recently bought very comprehensive WWII German and French navies for less than $200 USD.

The key ingredient seems to be access to a big empty floor…

I set up a game intended for 1200 basically Starfleet battles for WW2. You commanded one ship and each hit was adjudicated for damage using a similar dice system to the board game. Never finished playtesting it though. It was intended to be tabletop but with only a few ships at a time.

Yes, access to a large floor, at least 20' x 20', is vital. We are fortunate in that one of our group owns a ranch-style home in the suburbs with a large open basement and an understanding wife.

Some of our larger battles do not get resolved in one day. They can be 'on the floor' so to speak, for 2 – 3 weeks, so the understanding wife is also essential.

When I started Seapower with my Alnavco fleet in the mid '70s, we had a barn on our property with a huge open upstairs. I would set up massive battles with my ships and often they would go over a few days, even with dusk to dawn time available due to summer vacation. Once I did not want to leave them all there overnight so I marked each position with chalk and the ship's name.

We moved back to this area in 1990 and I visited our old family home as I knew the new owner. Up in the barn there were my chalk marks on the floor still with the ship names.

Two years ago my daughter went to the property and snapped a beautiful photo of the same barn for me for Father's Day. She had not been able to ask anyone (no one was ever home when she stopped several times) so she took the picture and left. I look at this picture and wonder if those marks are there still. Given the age of the barn I am glad she did not try.

To this day I cannot go into an older barn and not think about my naval games :)

Just a side note: WTJ has added 1/1200 as a scale option for everything available in 1/1250, if you're picky about the exact scale.

- Ix