4th Cuirassier | 30 Jan 2020 5:16 a.m. PST |
I have always had a soft spot for this vintage Airfix kit: link What exactly did these things do when not crossing water? Were they parked in the rear echelon somewhere until needed or did they have other uses? edit: has that build got the jeep's windscreen on back to front? |
Stosstruppen | 30 Jan 2020 5:45 a.m. PST |
Once landed, general fire support, transport, etc. |
Griefbringer | 30 Jan 2020 5:53 a.m. PST |
My understanding is that on amphibious landing, after bringing the initial wave to the shore they could find themselves spending quite a lot of time taxing between the beachhead and the ships off-shore to bring in reinforcements, ammunition and other supplies. |
Col Durnford | 30 Jan 2020 6:49 a.m. PST |
I love the kit. I built 5 of them for my British commandos. The Jeep does have the windshield on backwards. I used the jeeps (with a couple of the Airfix para jeeps for my para recon group. The Eureka para seated jeep crews really work great with these models. |
Gaz0045 | 30 Jan 2020 6:50 a.m. PST |
Windscreen is indeed back to front! Servicing and maintenance was intensive between operations along with driver and crew training…….as said once deployed they were found to be essential in ferrying men, equipment and stores in and casualties out (also refugees in Holland). |
Griefbringer | 30 Jan 2020 7:26 a.m. PST |
And in case you want to get more bang out of your LVTs, there were special fire support versions with a turret mounting either a 37 mm or short 75 mm gun. These were designed for direct fire support rather than for transportation. |
HMS Exeter | 30 Jan 2020 7:50 a.m. PST |
Says the sergeant to the specialist who installed the windscreen back to front. "How many times have I gotta tell you? RTFM!" |
StoneMtnMinis | 30 Jan 2020 7:55 a.m. PST |
Someone has to say it: they "roam". OK, I will go sit in the corner now. |
Timbo W | 30 Jan 2020 8:07 a.m. PST |
Also iirc they were used in flooded areas of Holland by the Canadians and the Highland Div (that typically spent much of the time fighting below sea level) |
Legion 4 | 30 Jan 2020 9:28 a.m. PST |
Once landed, general fire support, transport, etc. Servicing and maintenance was intensive between operations along with driver and crew training…….as said once deployed they were found to be essential in ferrying men, equipment and stores in and casualties out (also refugees in Holland). they were used in flooded areas of Holland by the Canadians and the Highland Div (that typically spent much of the time fighting below sea level) Yep ! And just because a unit is not in direct combat. They always maintain their equipment from a pistol up to the heaviest AFV. As well as train from recent lessons learned, etc. Yes there is some dead/down time, but generally you are always busy doing something. Even if is waiting to get the word to go ! After doing pre-combat ops prep. Which can be very involving at times. |
HMS Exeter | 30 Jan 2020 11:49 a.m. PST |
#StoneMtn I was going to write "graze," but thought better of it. Which is actually rather unlike me. Oh well. |
LeonAdler | 30 Jan 2020 12:20 p.m. PST |
Dave you win 'worst pun/joke' of the month lol L |
ScottWashburn | 30 Jan 2020 12:27 p.m. PST |
In the Pacific there were many times when there was a coral reef surrounding the island they wanted to invade. The reef prevented landing craft from sailing right up to the beach. During the initial landings the Buffalos would carry the assault troops across the reef. But later they would often be used to ferry supplies from larger craft like LCTs and LSTs which still couldn't get across the reef until the engineers could blast open a channel. So for a critical day or two, the Buffalos were vital in keeping the troops ashore supplied. |
Tinned Stew | 30 Jan 2020 1:44 p.m. PST |
In NW Europe these were all under the overall command of 79th Armoured. Hobart was very keen to make sure that 79th's assets were not misused, so when not on active operations, they would be in the rear for maintenance and training. Same with Churchill AVREs/ Crocodiles etc. |
MiniPatton | 30 Jan 2020 5:22 p.m. PST |
My dear old 97-year-old grandfather told me about driving one near the end of the war. He was guarding prisoners and they were using it to move people around. |
4th Cuirassier | 31 Jan 2020 2:39 a.m. PST |
So does this mean you can't really use them as a fighting unit unless the game is a water crossing? The windscreen error aside it was a nice build I thought. |
Griefbringer | 31 Jan 2020 3:28 a.m. PST |
So does this mean you can't really use them as a fighting unit unless the game is a water crossing? As land fighting units such large, lightly armoured and armed vehicles are not particularly impressive. There were many ground vehicles with comparable or better fighting capabilities, but few other vehicles with any kind of amphibious ability. |
ScottWashburn | 31 Jan 2020 5:10 a.m. PST |
It's very unlikely that anyone would use a valuable, highly specialized vehicle like that for ordinary ground combat. Plus, you have to consider that the Amtracs were organized into transport battalions with their own chains of command. They were not attached to ground combat formations. |
Starfury Rider | 31 Jan 2020 6:23 a.m. PST |
There was a very real difference between the way the British LVTs were used in NWE, and the way they were used by the US Army and the Marine Corps in the PTO. 79th Armd Div were aware of the limitations of the LVT, and listed some of these as - 1. Must not be overloaded as climbing power is affected. 2. Track plates preclude their running for more than short distances on hard surfaces, and then only at slow speeds. 3. They are very noisy. Air activity is required to cover their approach. 4. They are armoured only against SAA in front and are unarmoured elsewhere. 5. Engine overhaul is required after one hundred hours' running. For river crossings a ferry type service was essential. It took a lot of LVTs to take an Inf Bn across a river, once they did the aim was to turnaround and go back for the next batch of troops and vehicles, get them across, return and repeat. As mentioned, outside the major crossing operations 79th Armd Div used its LVTs for less glamarous ferry work in flooded areas of Holland. Despite the MGs and 20-mm cannons hanging off the average Buffalo, the principal role in NWE was as an amphibious transport. They were not capable of absorbing much in the way of enemy fire and were difficult to replace. Gary |
Legion 4 | 31 Jan 2020 8:36 a.m. PST |
I agree with the last 3 posts here. Their strong suit is doing Amph ops. And in most cases the were used in those situations. That was their value. To use them as just another transport would not be very appropriate as Gary noted. Don't use a hammer if you need a wrench … |
deephorse | 31 Jan 2020 9:05 a.m. PST |
"The Story of 79 Armoured Division" by Anon gives a fairly detailed description of Buffalo operations in NWE. As Gary says, once the initial trip to land the assault wave was made, the Buffaloes went into ferry mode, transporting vast amounts of further men, small vehicles, guns, and supplies to the assault area. On the return journeys they would carry the wounded, POWs, and civilian refugees (in Holland). The book describes two instances of Buffaloes providing fire support to attacking infantry, and a few cases of Buffaloes carrying their infantry up to a mile inland of where they exited the water. These are the exception though, and not the norm. |
deadhead | 31 Jan 2020 2:10 p.m. PST |
I am sure all have seen this, but just in case…. TMP link |
Wolfhag | 31 Jan 2020 3:04 p.m. PST |
After thorough research here is what I found that buffalo do when not in the water.
Any questions? Wolfhag |
Legion 4 | 01 Feb 2020 9:38 a.m. PST |
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Legion 4 | 01 Feb 2020 9:42 a.m. PST |
Buffaloes providing fire support to attacking infantry, and a few cases of Buffaloes carrying their infantry up to a mile inland of where they exited the water. These are the exception though, and not the norm. Very much so … As always many decisions are based on terrain & situation. |
deephorse | 01 Feb 2020 10:26 a.m. PST |
You missed out the words "two instances of". Completely changes the information contained in that sentence. |
Old Glory | 01 Feb 2020 2:49 p.m. PST |
I would imagine the whole herd would cross and the try to locate an area of the prairie that would provide good grazing? Depending on the size of the herd they probably would not stay in any one area to long as it would become void of grass. Then they would go back to the water, quench their thirst, cross again to a new grassy plain ? |
Legion 4 | 01 Feb 2020 5:11 p.m. PST |
"two instances of" No I understood that and agree, it was very rare for them to be used like that. I.e. only 2 instances. And the choice to use them that way on those occasions was based on the terrain and more importantly the situation. |
4th Cuirassier | 03 Feb 2020 8:45 a.m. PST |
So regrettably I can't buy these for the memories and use them as APCs…. |
Legion 4 | 03 Feb 2020 9:18 a.m. PST |
Basically that is generally true. Again, you don't use a hammer when you need a wrench … |
Kilroy44 | 12 Feb 2020 4:34 p.m. PST |
In the Pacific: Passenger-carrying LVT's in the assault landing waves were to return to the transport ships to ferry succeeding waves of troops ashore immediately their passengers disembarked. Once the beach lodgment was secure the LVT's became primarily logistics vehicles, moving supplies around, moving supplies from the beach to forward areas, evacuating wounded from forward areas to the beach, etc. Generally they were not used as combat APC's or fire support after the initial beach assault, as such usage was regarded as an unacceptable risk of a valuable, expensive and scarce vehicle asset. The LVT's armed with 37mm guns or 75mm howitzers, however, were used as light tanks or assault guns to support infantry, often far inland from the beach and long after the assault landing concluded. At the conclusion of a campaign they were withdrawn and readied for the next landing. |
Legion 4 | 12 Feb 2020 4:41 p.m. PST |
That sounds correct. As we know the PTO was a different situation that the ETO. |
deephorse | 13 Feb 2020 3:59 a.m. PST |
So regrettably I can't buy these for the memories and use them as APCs… You could do whatever you want with them, they would be your toys. But strictly speaking, no. |
4th Cuirassier | 13 Feb 2020 4:25 a.m. PST |
@ deephorse Well, yeah. But wargaming is a way of de-infantilising a kids' hobby. If I can argue that serious and earnest research underpins what's going down on my tabletop, I then have a better argument that this is not merely playing with toy soldiers. :-) |
Starfury Rider | 13 Feb 2020 7:01 a.m. PST |
You could always try handling a Troop or two rather more aggressively and see how they compare against the more normal usage in 79th Armd Div, though you will have to explain to Hobo how come you lost so many if it goes badly… |
Legion 4 | 13 Feb 2020 8:58 a.m. PST |
Very true … you could use your LVTs as you wish. If you are playing the "Cdr" you could pretty much do use them as an APC. Unless you want to be totaling historical … Bottom line we Are playing with toys soldiers !
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deephorse | 14 Feb 2020 3:37 a.m. PST |
But wargaming is a way of de-infantilising a kids' hobby. If I can argue that serious and earnest research underpins what's going down on my tabletop, I then have a better argument that this is not merely playing with toy soldiers.:-) Well, in that case, have a few of them drive up to a mile inland of the landing area. I have researched that for you and the evidence exists! Or push them on a bit further and introduce a rule that has them frequently breaking down as their tracks get ruined. ;) |
Legion 4 | 14 Feb 2020 8:55 a.m. PST |
I agree with a breakdown rule. They really were not designed to push that deep inland. That being said, with historical gaming, IMO we can only go so far with "what-ifs" … I mean you can't use Tigers in the France '40 battles. An old SPI game about El Alamein had an alternate scenario. That had Ramcke's Paras landing in gliders at the DAK player's choice. link And of course the classic "What if had a B-52 at Waterloo ?" … But I don't think using your LVTs as APCs inland no where near that though. Go for it including a breakdown rule. |