| Tango01 | 25 Jan 2020 3:25 p.m. PST |
"After his return from Russia, Napoleon's days were numbered. Obviously, he made a mistake and went back into the blender during the 1813 campaign which culminated in the Super-Battle at Leipzig. Lets say however, that Napoleon showed a dash of his old brilliance and pulled off an awesome Austerlitz style victory that saves him at the last minute at Leipzig (like he did several times before.) The Allied armies are smashed, and Napoleon's army barely gets a scratch. Would the Allies have folded like earlier times, or kept on again? Lets say Napoleon wins such a smashing victory at Leipzig that he wins the campaign, and theres a round of peace treaties again. How long does the Empire last? And, is it really possible for Napoleon to have won such a victory at Leipzig?…"
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Armand |
| 21eRegt | 25 Jan 2020 5:27 p.m. PST |
No, it is not possible for Napoleon to win at those long odds, without the desertion in the midst of battle by some of his "allies." It would take some kind of Harry Turtledove application for victory to be achieved IMHO. |
| Brechtel198 | 25 Jan 2020 5:57 p.m. PST |
It was, but he had to win it on the first day. He was ahead on points, but it was not decisive. And when his trains, including his reserve ammunition, was cut off in Eilenberg, north of Leipzig, he decided to withdraw. Napoleon wasn't defeated until the bridge over the Elster was blown prematurely. |
| von Winterfeldt | 26 Jan 2020 12:29 a.m. PST |
The Allied armies are smashed, and Napoleon's army barely gets a scratch. Sheer fantasy – also Dresden did not change anything, the Allies had burned their bridges – in the end such fantasy ideas are mood. |
| tabletopwargamer | 26 Jan 2020 3:11 a.m. PST |
To indulge, rather than ignore the question, if even he had won, just as before, a new coalition would have emerged within a couple of years. |
| von Winterfeldt | 26 Jan 2020 6:17 a.m. PST |
By the way, in theory no need for a battle, Boney lost already a third of his army due to exhaustion just by marching them helplessly around without any operational consequences, not without any reason he chose to reduce his infantry from three to two ranks at Leipzig to hide those losses. |
| Brechtel198 | 26 Jan 2020 6:34 a.m. PST |
…Dresden did not change anything… Only because Vandamme was left isolated by St Cyr's sluggish pursuit and then lost at Kulm. Dresden itself was an outstanding victory. Napoleon fought outnumbered and inflicted four times the casualties that he suffered. In that result Dresden was akin to Ligny. |
| Sparta | 26 Jan 2020 6:35 a.m. PST |
I think these reflections are much more relevant for 1813 than those for 1814. In the spring Austria was on the fence. His star was highest after Bautzen, and he says that the armistice was his greatest mistake. After Bautzen the allies was at odds and the russians had planned retreating away from the prussians the day the armisitce proposal came. I do believe that would have saved germany for france. At Leipzig the attacks on the first day could hust as well have broken through. They stalled almost on the door step of Croebern. If the bridge here was taken, the allied reserve was stranded on the wrong side of the river and the Bohemian army would most likely have retreated. |
| Sparta | 26 Jan 2020 1:52 p.m. PST |
In the above I mean than those for 1815 :-) |
| Murvihill | 26 Jan 2020 3:05 p.m. PST |
Assuming that the Grand Army smashed the Army of Bohemia on the first day of major combat, Blucher and Bernadotte would have backed off while Bohemia reorganized, reinforced and became combat effective. Napoleon couldn't chase Bohemia this time because of the proximity of the other two armies and if he turned on one of the other armies they would have simply backed up. The allies could afford to wait, Napoleon couldn't. There were more troops available so Napoleon winning Leipzig wouldn't end the war. OTOH the Saxons probably wouldn't have defected. |
| huevans011 | 26 Jan 2020 4:42 p.m. PST |
Assuming that the Grand Army smashed the Army of Bohemia on the first day of major combat, Blucher and Bernadotte would have backed off while Bohemia reorganized, reinforced and became combat effective. Napoleon couldn't chase Bohemia this time because of the proximity of the other two armies and if he turned on one of the other armies they would have simply backed up. The allies could afford to wait, Napoleon couldn't. There were more troops available so Napoleon winning Leipzig wouldn't end the war. OTOH the Saxons probably wouldn't have defected. He would have needed a decisive victory over the A of B, to the extent that Metternich lost his nerve and advised the Kaiser to withdraw into Bohemia and break the alliance. You then get the Spring 1813 scenario all over again and quite possibly with the same result. Wellington gets Spain of course in the meantime. |
| grahambeyrout | 29 Jan 2020 2:28 p.m. PST |
Europe that Napoleon was fighting in 1813 was very different to that he had conquered earlier. He had awakened nationalism in Prussia and even in Austria and also many of the smaller German states. He also had a constant drain of Spain to contend with and of course Britain remained to payroll his enemies. If he would have won at Leipzig, the allies would have merely regrouped, gathered strength and reassumed the fight. He may have gained a respite with a victory, even perhaps a peace, but in a year or so, the allies would be back. Remember Jena did not break Prussia, or Wargram, Austria. They wanted revenge, |
| Tango01 | 30 Jan 2020 1:14 p.m. PST |
They wanted British money…. Amicalement
Armand |
returns to Flintloque to paint an Ogre.
