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"Burgundian flags 1477-1492" Topic


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Charlie18 Jan 2020 6:49 a.m. PST

I'm putting together flags for my War of the Burgundian Succession project – France tries to conquer the Burgundian territories after the death of Charles the Bold, whilst Maximilian of Hapsburg (who married Charles' daughter) tries to keep them under his authority.

The 'Burgundian' army wasn't a cohesive force, and the way I understand Max's troops would be drawn fro three sources:
1) Remnants of Charles' Ordonnance companies, a great deal (most?) of who would have died at Nancy. Obviously there would be some companies who survived or were never at the battle. I believe Max and Mary formed some new companies or re-organised the remants of the old ones. Mounted men-at-arms and archers.
2) Flemish militia (pikemen). Before the marriage between Mary and Max, the Flemish had a go at fighting the French by themselves. They were later used in Max's armies, and rebelled against him many times.
3) German mercenaries, which Max increasingly relied on. Presumably mostly infantry, and also at various times included Swiss.

Now the wealth of images we have of Burgundian flags are all from the time of Charles the Bold, but I want to avoid these. What would the flags of the 'Burgundian' armies of 1477-1492 be?

We know this was when the Burgundian ragged saltire was adopted by the Hapsburgs.

For the cavalry I think I'll be using Pete's Flags – the three lower ones on the sheet here. As far as I understand these are somewhat generic ones, not linked specifically to Charles the Bold. If anyone has any more info on the sources for them, please share. I'll email Pete too before I commit to using them.
auction

And now the infantry….. So German (possibly including Swiss) infantry, presumably pikemen, halberdiers, handguns and crossbows. I think for them simple ragged saltires.

I have put together three flags, here they are. The first one, red-on-white, is my favourite. The two others are a bit pixellated around the edges, but I'm thinking once printed off on a much smaller scale this won't be noticeable. The ripples on all three of them I added myself to existing images.




Now does anyone with knowledge on this subject have anything to share that I ought to know? I'm aware that the Burgundian saltire went on to be used by the Spanish and all sorts of other nations. So might be a bit odd to see a 'Burgundian' army featuring Swiss troops flying a 'Spanish' flag.

I'm also thinking about a flag of the Hapsburg arms (which I believe is identical to the modern Austrian national flag?), and perhaps the 'original' simple Burgundian flag, just the blue and yellow diagonals in the red border. Perhaps the latter I'll reserve for a commander figure? Thoughts?

Atheling18 Jan 2020 8:23 a.m. PST

Hi,

You really need to get a copy of this booklet. It's jam packed with Burgundian, Standards, Heraldic Banners and even the cornets of the companies!

lanceandlongbow.com/shop/publication.php?ID=Pub-033

It's available from The Lance and Longbow Society here:
lanceandlongbow.com/shop.php

You most definitely will not regret it!

justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com

Charlie18 Jan 2020 8:39 a.m. PST

Ah but Darrell…. is it all about the Charles the Bold era, or does it cover beyond 1477, after Nancy?

I'm taking a look though, thanks.


And here's the Hapsburg / Austrian flag, and the (simple version of) the Burgundian flag. Would either of these make sense to be flown by the 'German' infantry?

GurKhan18 Jan 2020 10:08 a.m. PST

The Maid of Ghent flag – link – was maid, I mean made, in Ghent in 1481-2; it may be a Ghent militia flag.

Swampster18 Jan 2020 4:54 p.m. PST

I went with the flags shown on the artwork commisioned by Max e.g. link
and

picture

You can see that as well as a non-ragged saltire, they do carry the two flags you suggested.

Worth looking at the Weiss Kunig illustrations too. link There are examples of ragged and straight saltires, and some have the steels and sparks while others are plain.

The paintings and the book postdate the events by quite a few years. but if he didn't use them then I would tell people that my army represents how Max wanted it to be seen :)

There are also some flags shown in Swiss chronicles including some I've shown on my blog
link

Charlie19 Jan 2020 5:18 a.m. PST

@Swampster – That's very helpful, thanks.

You're right, though they do postdate my era, if he was using the Austrian and Burgundian flags then I think I'd be quite happy to use them a decade or two earlier!

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