Erzherzog Johann | 18 Jan 2020 12:17 a.m. PST |
I'm planning to make some vineyards but I have a question. All the pictures I have seen suggest a high pergola style frame with the vines climbing above human height, unlike the modern arrangement with rows of low heavily pruned vines. But I have seen commercially made vineyards that look like the modern style. Were both methods of growing in use or are the modern looking ones wrong? Thanks, John |
Eumelus | 18 Jan 2020 12:38 a.m. PST |
Many methods for training vines were used in pre-19th century vineyards. In addition to the high pergola system you mention, some regions grew vines individually around single stakes (this method is still used in some places today). Some vineyards trained vines up fruit trees or other tree types (such as mulberry trees, to support a native silk industry, although that is later than the period in question). The one method that was not employed, as you note, was long low training along wire trellises, as inexpensive non-rusting wire was not yet invented. |
timurilank | 18 Jan 2020 2:19 a.m. PST |
Mine were constructed as a modular system, so size and shape can adjust to available space. Vines are no higher that figure shoulder height which makes them easy to store. These can be seen in the second photo in the link given below. link |
Swampster | 18 Jan 2020 4:11 a.m. PST |
TMP link has a number of useful pictures and links. Using a single stake for each plant could be used and still is in some places. Horizontal training could be used, though with poles or ropes instead of wire. FWIW, archaeology of Roman British vineyards doesn't seem to have a regular enough pattern of post holes that you'd need for a regular overhead trellis. The remains seem to show that as a post decayed, it could be replaced by a post in a different position whereas the trellis would need it to go back in the same spot. Pliny mentions various methods of support and says that some vines are strong enough that they don't need support. He – or the translator – does mention trellis a couple of times. In one case, this seems to be for providing shade. One variety of grape intended for the table is mentioned as grown on a trellis. Columella's advice can be difficult to follow, but he seems to advocate the use of cross beams between rows, giving more of a trellis effect. Even then, he says that the proper height for a vine is five feet (with some variation according to age and siting). He says, though, that many people are satisfied with straight rows without cross connections. The trellis seems to be made of naturally curving stakes rather than a very straight modern looking pergolla. There are medieval pictures and descriptions showing rows and the use of trees. There are even some with apparently unsupported vines being harvested even though they are basically knee high bushes. |
Costanzo1 | 18 Jan 2020 7:12 a.m. PST |
I think the ancient vineyards of two types. One with irregular rows of low single vines, the other is the "piantata" used by Etruscans (perhaps from Greeks) where vines are supported by living trees; in the last case the section of the vine is T shaped |
Erzherzog Johann | 18 Jan 2020 11:34 p.m. PST |
A wealth of information here everyone. It's very much appreciated. I have seen medieval illustrations of vines growing through trees (actually as a kid we had a "grapricot" tree which always produced a lot more grapes than apricots :-( and in the back garden now we have a plum that's being colonised by a grape vine . . .). I just don't really know how to model that without it ending up looking like any other wood or orchard, although a bit of work going on, like a wagon, barrels etc might look good. So I'll experiment but I think I'll probably do the pergola style too as a backup. You can't have too many vineyards in a Mediterranean setting. Does anyone know whether or not "Peithetairos", who posted a link to this page link ever posted further on that project – eg pictures of how it turned out? Thanks everybody for your input, John |
BigRedBat | 19 Jan 2020 3:08 a.m. PST |
I made some pergola-stle vineyards some years back, might be some useful pointers. link |
Erzherzog Johann | 19 Jan 2020 11:25 a.m. PST |
Beautiful work. I agree that the jute string looks perfect; I just happen to have a ball of that in the garage :-) I'm also lucky enough to have built a real pergola in that style in the back garden last year to train the grapezilla that was flopping all over one corner of the back yard when we moved to our current abode so I can get inspiration from lolling about down there . . . |
Erzherzog Johann | 20 Jan 2020 12:00 a.m. PST |
Well, I've made a decision: 1 Buy some small (2" – 2 1/2" elm trees from ebay (ouch, freight from the USA significantly more than the actual price plus a weird import tax when they're exporting them to me. 2 Make a bunch of pergola style arrangements a la bigredbat. 3 Make them all removable and interchangeable so I can use the pergola ones while I wait for the trees to arrive and so I can use a variety as required. Thanks again for all the help, John |