"Does a cornet exist from Hesilrigge's lobsters?" Topic

A bit of sleuthing found that an ECW cornet went under the hammer at Bonham's auction house in April 2005, the story attached to the cornet claimed it was taken at Second Newbury from a member of the Hesilrigge family…

I can find no further details, any further provenance,/references/or who bought it (museum or private collector)

My sleuthing has been added to my Flags and Colours – evidence blogpost link

Hi KYPD. The brocas flag rings a bell, think I read about it on an old ecw Times. Will see if I can find it. Also re cornets, there's a room divider made of 6 stitched together at museum of London. Probably 2nd civil war.

Hi Timbo, I've heard about the Museum of London divider before. I contacted the Museum of London and they didn't know anything about it. Have you any further references/pictures of it?

Maybe it's moved on somewhere, will try digging this info out too!

Thanks

In a video clip (which I don't know how to post here) I took of the present reenactment Lobsters at Noseley Hall (the Hazzlerig seat) they carry a green cornet with an anchor on it.

There's usually a source for these things.

Phil

Hi Phil, yes there is a recorded cornet for the Lobsters with an anchor (Blount).
We know that the Regiment had 7 troops by early 1644; each troop would have carried it's own cornet. As was common at the time, individual troop cornets would usually have the same colour field (in this case green) but then have individual motifs.

I was wondering if the one that was auctioned was a different troop's cornet (other than the one that is widely known)?

Greetings

Re Museum of London this may be relevant link

Edward

Hi all!

John Stallard (our boss) has an interesting story about this. He was actually at Bonhams in London when the cornet was auctioned.

The reserve was set at £6,000.00 GBP, but he thought it would go for much more – sadly, he was right. He was leading the bidding right up until the last moment, when he was pipped by an anonymous bidder on the phones!

Unfortunately the anonymous bidder was a complete unknown, and we've no idea who ended up with the cornet in the end!

Marcus – Warlord Games

Many thanks for finding that Edward. Maybe the curator I communicated with just didn't know of their existence in the collection.

Brilliant, thanks for that Marcus. I was wondering where it ended up. Shame it went to a private bidder, really should be in a museum.

Hi KYPD,

re the London Museum flags they may have come from Col Robert Hatton's horse raised in Kent during the Second Civil War.

Blount mentions: Col. Hatton represented the picture of Fortune with a Crown in her right hand, and 5 halters in the left, and 5 men (its like intended for the 5 members) addressing themselves unto her upon their knees, but she gives them the left hand, with this Motto, CUIQUAM MERITUM. This matches nicely with one of the devices shown.

Also there are 6 cornets, but they were apparently double-thickness and have been taken apart to form the 12 panels of the screen. IIRC 5 pairs match (presumably both sides being painted the same) while the last two don't match, possibly from one flag with a different design on each side?? I still haven't tracked down the magazine article yet though.

Meanwhile the Brocas flag is shown on the back cover of ECW Times #59. Apparently it sold at Bonham's to an anonymous UK buyer for £13.00 GBPK. The Bonham's writeup gives light green damask (ie patterned) silk woven with gold & brown scroll and motto CONSTANTER ET FIDELITER in black. Provenance from the Sandys family, Challorer Chute Speaker of the House of Commons, Reginald Brocas, thence by descent. Walter Money mentions the story in hos book on the battles of Newbury:

'With regard to Bernard Brocas, and the flag taken by him at the First Battle of Newbury, Reginald Brocas Esq. has obligingly favoured me with the following particulars:- 'An ancestor of mine, Sir Thomas Brocas, of Beaurepaire, had eight sons, seven of whom fell in the Civil War, fighting for the King. The one (Bernard) who captured the flag at the Battle of Newbury was the fifth son of the said Sir Thomas and the affair happened thus. He, Bernard Brocas, being in love with the daughteer of Lord Sandes, of the Vyne, took every opportunity of passing his time with his fair mistress, much to the dislike of all his relatives, who were staunch Royalists, and many of whom had fought at Edgehill, – in fact four of his brothers were there. Refusing to give up his intended, and being told that his loyalty was distrusted, and that his mistress would wean him away to her father's side, he took an oath that he would give substantial proof, in the next engagement, of his loyalty, and would either bring back a standard, or stay in the field. He did both! He took the flag, killed the bearer (who is said to be one of the Hazelriggs), and was found on the field after the battle, dead, with the flag beside him. After all was over the flag was taken and given to the Sandes family. (Montagu Burrows, 'The Family of Brocas of Beaurepaire and Roche, Hereditary Masters of the Royal Buckhounds. London 1886. pp234-5.)'

So this is all rather stirring but worryingly problematic. First, the link to Hesilrigge seems very weak (said to be one of the Hesilrigges….) and AFAIK no other Hesilrigge fought for Parliament except Sir Arthur and his cornet is well known (cloud and anchor). Secondly 1st Newbury is specified in the story and Hesilrigge's regiment weren't there (though they were at 2nd Newbury). Third I'm a bit suspicious as to whether the colour of the faded flag was determined by examination/analysis or whether this was an assumption based on Hesilrigge's known cornet colour.

So there you go. Discuss!! :-)

I've contacted the Museum again who, this time, confirmed that the panels are still in their collection. They described the panels very much as you have Timbo. There are some remnants of both pole sleeves and fringing on some of the cornets. They too believe that they all come from the same regiment that fought in the Kentish rebellion but don't make a link to hatton.

As for the Brocas cornet: the Telegraph article mentions 2nd Newbury and a Heselrigge.

Sadly I don't have a copy of Money's book, only Scott's which makes no mention of the cornet. Which is surprising as it is an interesting aside.

All very interesting, thanks for your research Timbo. So now we appear to have nine remaining BCW era cavalry cornets in existence (if you include the two Yates cornets)

Museum of London is moving sites to Smithfield market(current target date is 2024) and they are hoping to display the cornets as individual flags rather than as screens.

Hi KYPD, good to know the museum is planning to display them. The article on these flags is in ECW Notes and Queries 47.This doesn't add much to what you already show.

I agree the current total is nine ECW english cavalry cornets surviving. Though you never know what will turn up.

Also re Haselrigge's regiment, 2 more cornet designs are recorded,

Capt Walter Parry., Green with Bible and motto vita et omnia Pro veritate on scroll, he joined the rgt sometime after Oct 43.

Capt Samuel Gardiner. Green with palm tree coat of arms and motto victur in aetate floreat magis on scroll. He raised a troop for Brooke in Jan 43 but transferred it to Hesilrigges by May, so likely cuirassiers.

These are from Spring's Waller Army.

In the new model army, Butler was given command then replaced by Horton who had a new set of 6 cornets, illustrations of which we show on the BCW regimental wiki

Thanks Timbo.
I've not got the Spring Waller's Army volume from P&S, is it good?

Excellent for officer lists, has quite brief history for most rgts and some nice colour illustrations of flags. This one focuses on the Southern Association. I think laurence Spring has just published a new book on Wallers forces with helion but I haven't read that yet

Thanks Timbo. The new Helion tome focuses on the campaigns (from my cursory read so far)