"Tank Hunting in Hue" Topic

My entire collection of Gringos40 NVA. Great figures, nothing wrong with them, it is just the subject that does not appeal to me!

Anyway, here they are sneaking up on an ARVN tank (actually I think the photo is from Saigon but….). Basically this is much easier and quicker than making a proper base for them. It is called cheating;

Neat ! I don't know if the ARVN had any M41s at Hue ? Of course we know the USMC had M48s, M50s and Mules w/106s.

This article says the ARVN had M24s. Which I was surprised to find out… But it is certainly possible. The French used them against the Viet Minh. Notably at DBP. So there certainly could have been some in the ARVN inventory. They were primarily for Inf Spt obviously. I knew the ARVN had M113s at Hue.

Leaving Company A behind to secure the MACV Compound, the Marine battalion commander took Company G, reinforced by the three M-48 tanks from the 3rd Tank Battalion and a few ARVN M-24 light tanks from the 7th Armored Squadron, and attempted to cross the Trýờng Tiền Bridge, the main bridge over the Perfume River. Gravel left the armor behind on the southern bank to provide direct fire support. As he remembered, the American M-48s were too heavy for the bridge and the ARVN tankers "refused to go." As the Marine infantry started across, an enemy machine gun on the other end of the bridge opened up, killing and wounding several Marines.

link

This article says the SV purchased 137 M24s … link

Well I do recall that the photo was from Saigon.

But this one is always labelled as Hue and the chap with the radio is surely a Marine, even if some of the rest are ARVN. Must read up on this from my very limited sources

Greetings

I think by 1968 all the ARVN M-24s had been transferred to the Air Force and were mainly static.

I have read that the ARVN armour in Hue was from 17 ACR with elements of 4 and 7 ACR. In this case the ARVN light tanks would be M-41 not M-24.

Regards

Edward

Dear Deadhead,

Why do you tempt me so with your wonderful art? Damn. I have been trying to NOT invest in this era. However, you are making it difficult.

Great work my friend. Inspiring.

I continue to read up on the period to learn more about this military conflict which happened when I was so young. Thanks, in part, to your work, for keeping me interested.

Liam,

When were you in country? It seems that your knowledge far surpasses those of us who were. I can only speak for December '67 to Jan '69. I did not serve at in your opinion the war's peak and only crucial battle of Hue. 1968 saw the USMC engaged in various areas of Quang Tri, Thua Tien and Quang Nam during that year.

And yes, flak jackets and your USN parka were indeed seen in the hills of Huong Hoa district as counter to your earlier comments that it was a "Hue only thing". Your doubt of M14s used in Hue seems to be countered by a Googled photo of two Marines firing from a second story building, one with an M16 and the other a standard M14.

I have held back these comments to not be critical, but in words of old friends "…if you weren't there, keep your mouth shut".

When I voted in the poll for a Vietnam board, little did I know it would become a modern version of the Napoleonic boards. My last post on this subject and probably this board.

Deadhead, good luck as you lead us old and forgetful Vietnam Veterans to correct the failures of our fading memories or lack of suitable experiences in your specific area of
interest. Continue counting buttons and sharing the decades of your research.

Sam Lemonds

Me in country? I was at school here in England and rushed home to follow events in Khe Sanh every night on BBC News. At the time it dominated my thoughts as I expected another Dien Bien Phu.

Why am I now so obsessed with Hue? Recent books I guess, fighting in a built up area and better documented. If I button or rivet count it is more in Napoleonics and even then only Waterloo.

I certainly recall being convinced that I had only ever seen that unusual USN parka in Hue. But I have forgotten any M14 comment to be honest. I did present evidence that the grease gun DID appear in Hue, plus the Thompson, minus its butt. Now it is really interesting to hear about ARVN tanks from others.

I certainly hope nothing I have suggested has led you to abandon this board. It needs all the support it can get, especially from those who served and can give first hand info. Thanks to all for the response to this simple enough posting

Found it. Mea Culpa

I did indeed say, but it does not seem too unreasonably phrased;

"The M 14s by 1968? I doubt it. My understanding is that the Marines got the crap left over, ever since 1942, but I have not seen an M14 in Hue in my research (Again I thank God that an accident of Geography made this an academic issue for me, etc"

Well that picture is worth a 1000 words. The link I found must be wrong then. M41s it is !

great Vignette Liam….most inspiring

regards
Ged
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com

Thanks folks. I think (stress think) the tank ahead of the Marines here is an M41, so surely ARVN? Oh heck…I now think, after posting, that it is an M42 Duster (were they in Hue?) and US…never mind….it is almost an M41. Almost. Tank recognition is not my forte. I have only just learnt (on this forum) to tell an M48 from an M60.

I think (stress think) the tank ahead of the Marines here is an M41, so surely ARVN? Oh heck…I now think, after posting, that it is an M42 Duster (were they in Hue?) and US…never mind….it is almost an M41. Almost. Tank recognition is not my forte.

Yes, that is an ARVN M41 in the Saigon pic. As noted the ARVN had some M24s too. I'm pretty sure only the ARVN used the M41 along with M113s of course.

The US ARMY used M48s, M113s and M42s. Only the US ARMY used M551s. Only the USMC used LTVP-5 Amphtracks as well.

If any M60s got there is would have been very late in the war AFAIK(?).

M24 – link

M41 – link

M42 – link Note some US ARMY M42s were at Khe Sahn supporting the USMC. As well as other locations supporting the Marines.

The AFV in the pic is probably an M42. It uses the M41 chassis. The rear exhausts and tracks is the give away. The US ARMY also had some troops at Hue as well.

The Battle of Huế – also called the Siege of Huế – was one of the longest and bloodiest battles of the Vietnam War. Between 30 January and 3 March 1968, in the South Vietnamese city of Huế, 11 battalions of the Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN), four U.S. Army battalions, and three U.S. Marine Corps battalions – totaling 18 battalions – defeated 10 battalions of the People's Army of Vietnam and the Viet Cong (VC).

link

But if that pic is correct there was at least on M42 there(?). Wish there was a better pic … If so I could tell if it was an M42 or M41 for sure …

USMC LTVP-5 link

Last picture is an M42 duster. Similar chassis to the M41 but if you blow the picture up abit you can see that it is open topped. M42s were used in and around Hue during Tet.

That is what I thought, thank you ! Yes, you can see the gun tub/turret, plus the troops in and on the M42 don't look much at all like ARVN.

That makes it Army I guess and not Marines? Is it not great fascinating trying to interpret what can be very limited info, from images such as this..?

Thanks all for the input here

What I love is the contrast here between the three hunkered down behind whatever protection the tree offers and the chap next to the Duster, standing out there with his rifle slung.

Yes as the link says the US ARMY had troops there. E.g. MACV troops for one. The USMC did not have M42s … Also note only the USMC used M50 Ontos, the ARMY didn't want them so the USMC was glad to add them to their inventory. The last M50s left Gitmo in '88, IIRC.

As I've posted before as well, the US ARMY had troops at Kha Sahn. E.g. M42s as well as Quad .50s mounted on trailers towed by US ARMY cargo truck. Can't remember if they were Deuce & 1/2s or 5 tons. These M42s & Quad .50s were from US ARMY ADA units. link The NVAF was little threat to US/SEATO ground forces. But the M42s and Quad .50s were very good for breaking up massed NVA/VC infantry attacks.

The French at DBP even had some Quad .50s in '54.

BTW here is an excellent board game on HUE, I still have the 1st Ed. from Conflict. link

To be honest the above photo with the 3 Marines taking shelter behind the tree looks staged --a common occurrence. The fellow giving directions to the vehicle seems prety unconcerned ??

Russ Dunaway

Yes that did happen I'm sure. But generally it's SOP to always take cover regardless. But who knows ?

When people in an area take cover, everyone takes cover.
No one in their right mind would stand saying "take a left up there" while creating such a nice silhouette
USMC, 1967 -73. Veteran of Hue -- company driver (3531) -- Phu Bai when the hit the fan.

Russ Dunaway

We do have to forgive the occasional "Staged" photograph. So many are clearly far from that and it does often make me wonder how wounded men or those tending the obviously dying reacted when a photographer approached. The answer generally seems to be that they wanted it seen and recorded.

Enemy photographers seemed to do nothing BUT staged photos. Offhand I cannot think of a single outstanding photograph to emerge from the opposition…but stand to be corrected.

Great to hear from the experts. I do hope Bismarck stays on too…..

When people in an area take cover, everyone takes cover.
No one in their right mind would stand saying "take a left up there" while creating such a nice silhouette

I agree Russ totally. If you can be seen you can be hit, if you can be hit you can be killed.

You know better than I, Infantrymen, Tanks, etc., spend a lot of time trying get something solid between them and enemy fires. Or at least some concealment so you can't be seen.

And thank you for your service Marine !

I do hope Bismarck stays on too…..

I hope so too ! I always prefer to hear from "someone who was there", who had/has the training and experience, etc. Who "has seen the elephant" …

Just to again admit I was wrong about M14s in Hue and Bismarck was right. Really regret if I caused any upset.

Humble Pie, but there is a photo that I can cannot copy at this link showing one very conspicuously leaning against a wall;

link