"The Insidious Ideology of Ken Burns’s The Vietnam War" Topic

"The Vietnam War, Ken Burns and Lynn Novick's latest historical opus, opens with Karl Marlantes discussing the code of silence many Americans upheld when it came to the war. "Coming home from Vietnam was close to as traumatic as the war itself," says the Matterhorn author and Vietnam veteran. "For years, nobody talked about Vietnam. … It was so divisive. It's like living in a family with an alcoholic father. Shh. We don't talk about that. Our country did that with Vietnam." Familiar footage of the war is then played backwards. Helicopters, pushed off aircraft carriers following the fall of Saigon, rise out of the ocean. Tanks roll in reverse. Bombs fly back into mortars, bullets back into guns, tear gas back into canisters. Truncheons move away from the breasts of American protesters, while Phan Thị Kim Phúc—the Napalm Girl—runs the other way…"
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Amicalement
Armand

This was over 2 years ago. His latest documentary's on country music.

Agreed – that film was quite a while back. Why this now at the holiday season?

Regardless, if that film is one's only source of information on the Vietnam War, then perhaps its particular slant will affect viewers. But, you know, 'history'…

I thought it was pretty well done like most of Burn's works. It seems pretty accurate with many of those that were there being interviewed on both sides.

Maybe I'm "dense"(?!?) but I don't see the negative comments made by the author writing the article being totally valid. But I may be biased a bit, I'll freely admit …

If you want to see how early the political fix was in with respect to Vietnam, go here -

YouTube link

- and listen to how Morley Safer describes the battle and the Vietnam situation in general. A real patriot.

B

Yes, reporting without bias or opinion. That is what news should be.

No it's not, if one side lies the news is obligated to say so.

Hitler was bad.
No hitler was good.
Well there you have it 50/50 Hitler was equally good as bad. Tomorrow on the new can dogs fly helicopters, check in to find out. Good night.

When it comes to Ken Burns documentary, both liberals and conservatives are unhappy with parts of it, which means it's probably quite nuanced and good.
The only critique I've seen I've found valid is about how the south vietnamese are portrayed, it show lots about the corrupt dictatorship but little from the common south vietnamese people and the south vietnamese soldiers.

No it's not, if one side lies the news is obligated to say so.

That goes without saying … but facts are facts … otherwise it may just be opinion. E.g. it's 45 degrees and sunny outside here … that is a fact.

However I have to quote/paraphrase Mark Twain, "If you don't read the paper you are uninformed. And if you do read the paper you are misinformed."

He said that well over a 100 year ago.

both liberals and conservatives are unhappy with parts of it

Unfortunately with some being so polarized at either end of the bar. they will never be satisfied. Vietnam still holds a lot of "concern" etc., in the US among many. At this point more so than WWII or Korea.

Where it appears to me WWI and WWII still hold some "consternation", etc. in much of Europe. For a number of reason which I can understand completely.

And using the Hitler analogy is not always appropriate to all situations, IMO. As I have quoted someone before, something like. "One man's hero is another's terrorists". E.g. does anyone in ISIS or their supporters think they are the "bad guys?

But of course as I often say … I could be biased …

The press has been historically described as the "ratcatchers" of a free society ….. which is why the founders of the American Republic viewed a free press as indispensable to the health of the body politic.

In current times, however, our corporately monopolized press functions as a partisan propaganda tool.

B

Of course we need an open/free press … but we also need an accurate unbiased press. Which today certainly seems is not going to happen.

I watched this recently, and I believe it was based on a recommendation here at TMP (Legion4, possibly?).

I found it absolutely fascinating.

I tend to agree with GF re. the portrayal of the South Vietnamese. What was covered was pretty much the evil SV politicos, with almost no heed to the civpop. But then again, the civpop really had little influence, anyway.

I did recommend it on another thread here a ways back.

Well you can do a documentary alone on the SV people during the war.

The country was @ 15% Catholic after the French occupation. With many of the rest being Buddhists or to a less extent "folk religion".

Interestingly and sadly a number of SV Catholic nuns were executed by the VC in Hue in '68. And before that 2 US female missionaries were tied up in a hooch then it was set on fire by VC in '65-'66, IIRC ? They were burned alive. As well as a US civilian female doctor was captured by the VC and is still MIA to this day, AFAIK.

So there was no love or even consideration for the Catholic minority. Or foreigners. Which really is not a surprise as it was a reminder of the French occupation, etc. Today IIRC about 70% of the Vietnamese are again a "folk religion".

The hill tribes the US SF worked with were shunned by most of the other SV population. But with US SF advisors were one of the most cost effective US combat multipliers. E.g. 12 or so Green Berets in charge of 300 or more, Montagnards, Hmong, etc.

Much of the country were really simple farmers. However many were veterans of the Viet Minh who fought the French. Many VC/NLF were not hard corps Communists but Nationalists. Who did really care about Communism but just wanted another what they saw as a "round eyed occupier". Out of their country.

The NVA leadership knew this and during Tet pushed the VC forward. As after they won, they did want to have to deal with SV Nationalists.

By the '72 Easter Offensive after the NVA rebuilt itself after the heavy losses of Tet. They went on the offensive again, but there we fewer US troops there. The VC had been pretty much reduced to about 3 Rgt sized unit. Mostly in the Cham Coast Region. And in some cases being fleshed out by NVA.

So as I said there was a lot going on with the SV. But in the end it mattered little to the outcome in the long run. The NV leadership was determined to unify Vietnam under their control. No matter what it cost them, i.e. the NVA troops/population. Which did suffer heavy losses in the face of US/SEATO firepower, etc. Estimates are over 1 million. They were even surprised how quickly the South fell after the US left.

First the US pulled out its ground troops.
The RVN withstood the 72 NVA offensive
Then the US cut back its tactical support assets.
Then Congress cut military support and funding for Vietnam(*).
The handwriting was on the wall for the RVN leadership.
The RVN, no longer supported, collapsed in the face of the 75 NVA offensive.

(*) Complicated story: go here for a quick summary – link

postscript – A well-known saying (and tattoo, so I'm told) among the NVA: "Born in the North to die in the South".

B

Well even in '72 the US did have about a couple of Inf Bdes and SF of course. Still in country. The a large amount of US CAS and even a little Naval gunfire support assisted the ARVN in attriting the North. And pretty much staling the North's offensive.

But yes, I have heard that was tattoo was found on dead NVA.
The North was going to capture the South and unify Vietnam under their control. [Like the Kim's want to do to the ROK.] The NV leadership was going to "unite" Vietnam no matter how many of it's youth, etc., would have to die to do it. And many did …

I'd absolutely buy that some ground units lingered after the bug pull-out. Some of them would have been providing security for the remaining American support bases scattered around RVN. SF would have stayed around because there was no way the Montagnards and Hmong would have worked for the South Vietnamese.

Also, I know that Hmong families (no idea how many) were spirited out of RVN and re-settled in the USA.

Happy New Year to all. Best wishes for a happy, healthy and prosperous 2020.

B

I had heard the 'yards, Hmong, etc., were known to have called the ARVN "Rabbit Soldiers". For their propensity to run away when coming under fire, i.e. "run like rabbits".

But generally AFAIK the South Vietnamese/ARVN had no real "affection" for the Mountain Tribesmen. And vis versa … of course.