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"Recent Punic War with DBMM" Topic


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976 hits since 21 Nov 2019
©1994-2024 Bill Armintrout
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Wealdmaster21 Nov 2019 10:11 a.m. PST

Had a nice game recently with DBMM Polybian Roman vs. Later Carthage. Carthage had a line of spears for the center that was quickly damaged [one element away from disheartened] after two turns of combat fighting the ordinary blade with a couple inferior mixed in. It seemed unlike the push pull of an ancient battle line, but then things turned when the two deep spear (superior) with rear support (+4 +1 = +5) started winning and doubling some blades. Eventually the flanks of the Romans with their inferior Velites got turned and the Romans lost some turns later before they could bring up the Triarii.

My thoughts were that the spear with rear support relative to how it's handled now in DBA with side support are a bit odd in that they were so quickly mauled but then seemed to have two blocks of steady troops who saved the day but after the table looked nothing like an ancient battle line. I've always wondered if deep spears should enjoy an advantage or not. To me side support seems better but always with Neil Thomas' adage of (avoid double jeopardy) in mind (you must read his book even if you don't play) I think that having side support and avoiding flank attacks is already the point and the rules have designed an advantage without needing side support options.

Part of me wonders if DBA 3 has a better answer for this.

platypus01au21 Nov 2019 7:35 p.m. PST

Hi, one of the issues is that DBA is at a different scale to DBMM, so the mechanisms are different, arbeit to produce a similar outcome. Usually in DBMM you have blocks with quite a few spears in them, because of the relative point system, so you can already be both wide _and_ deep allowing you to absorb enemy intrusions (because they usually end up double overlapped) and cassulties.

I think I read an article from Goldsworthy(?) arguing that there was clearly an advantage to deep formations of spears (at least in Greek hoplite warfare), but it was a morale effect. He was definately against the whole "scrum" thing. With DBMM deep spears have an advantage, not from any combat factor (only second rank), but because the follow-up and threat-zone rules force you to continue to fight them. Eventually numbers win.

Lastly, Barker has commented before (Slingshot I think) that he thought the usual neat block diagram you see in books looked nothing like what it looked like on the battlefield. In DBMM, cassulties and recoil/follow-up will see at the end of a few bounds of combat with the line looking very ragged, with some troops pushed deep into enemy lines, or blocks of troops being isolated from the others. This is where the command/control PIP system is stressed because there are way fewer PIPs available than you want. Good players can focus or rallying troops in the best position to make an impact, or better still, have a reserve that can exploit a weakened enemy.

Anyway, just some of the reasons why DBMM is still my rules of choice for ancients.

Oh, and Sp(I) need to be at least 3 deep. Thin ranks of Sp(I) are very vunerable.

Cheers,
JohnG

Wealdmaster22 Nov 2019 2:49 p.m. PST

Thanks for your reassuring words. We want to play more games of DBMM to get a deeper understanding of some of the nuances before anything.

Durban Gamer23 Nov 2019 6:48 p.m. PST

Suggest try the same scenario but as big battle DBA3 – it is a great set of rules!

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