"The untold story of one of the Vietnam War's bloodiest" Topic

….battles

"Lam Son 719 was one of the bloodiest battles of the Vietnam War.

In a new book, Invasion of Laos, 1971: Lam Son 719, author Robert Sander notes, "Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) 1st Corps, appears to have suffered more than 7,500 casualties, and the Communist forces approximately 13,000."…."
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Amicalement
Armand

Thanks for posting. This looks like it would be a good read.

A votre service mon ami!. (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

I've read a book about Lam Son 719 years ago. Can't remember the author I think it was Ken Nolan. A battle certainly worth studying. Some of the lessons learned there were used when I was in the 101, '80-'83. E.g. Gunships escorting lift ships became SOP.

Tragic how poor the ARVN were once up against Main Force VC or NVA. Easy to do the racist stereotype thing (The Italians in WWII legend, until you study their naval special forces for just one example). Until you read more into the ARVN elite units' performance, plus they were genetically little different from those murdering illegitimi from north of the DMZ, who seemed so incredibly superior in tactics, morale, dedication.

Was it An Loc? I remember somewhere the ARVN held the NVA off in 73 against all the odds for a month or so. Every night on the BBC, these little skinny guys in tight trousers (pants, US) with huge helmets, always bunched too close together, did a Bastogne. But the US aid never got to them.
The higher ranking officers got out in the 1975 helicopters from Graham's US embassy or that CIA rooftop that was the Embassy too of course, even to this day.

HAS ANYONE EVER WRITTEN AN APPRECIATION OF THE ARVN? At their best, when supplies got through to them. When their officers did not embezzle all the US funding. When their officers were not always the first out.

Genetically they were Charlie or Nathaniel Victor. They should/could have been as good or better. Does anyone yet do a realistic ARVN soldier in 28mm. Skinny guy, five and a half foot tall max, tight trousers, (very tight actually and no patch pockets), huge helmet, without camou cover) , maybe a flak jacket if he is lucky……

Chucking dice and playing the Vietnam War is an Historical joke if you only put US elite up against NVA or Main force PLA and ignore the huge ARVN.

Do they have an ARVN Remembrance parade through Ho Chi Minh City every year, like we do in every UK city for our Glorious Dead? I suspect not too wise locally….

(smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Well to add some intel on your primary questions, etc., deadhead. I went to 2 of my old but excellent sources. The first is Conflict Magazine #6, 1973. I talked to you about the excellent game about the Hue, '68 previously.
I believe John Hill wrote this article… Tet Offensive, 1968 …

ARVN RANGER – Lacking the political consciousness of his opponents the ARVN Ranger fought for a variety of reason that defy generalization. … By 1968, the [ARVN] Ranger was being led by competent, experienced NCOs and his officers were becoming more interested in military than political affairs. He could stand and slug it out with the NVA on an equal basis.

… the crack ARVN 1st Infantry Division. … had a good combat record, for in engagements with the best NVA regular units it gave as good as it got.

Then next reference I have is S&T Magazine nr.35, 1972. An article by John Prados. Entitled YEAR OF THE RAT Vietnam, 1972 …

the ARVN … three elite forces … The Paratroops, one of the ARVN's best forces,

The [ARVN] Marines … Another of ARVN's best forces.

The [ARVN] Rangers … They are good infantry.

ARVN 1st Div. … the best Div of the ARVN,

ARVN 2d Div. … a unit of average ability.

ARVN 3d Div. Is a poor unit.

ARVN 5th Div. … low fighting ability

ARVN 7th Div. defeated by the NLF at Ap Bac in 1963 … The Division preformed well in Cambodia in 1970.

ARVN 9th – no comment on effectiveness …

ARVN 18th … one of the ARVN's least effective units.

ARVN 21st … did well in Cambodia in 1970.

ARVN 22d … no comment on effectiveness …

ARVN 23d … a fairly good unit.

ARVN 25th … another Division of questionable effectiveness.

Do they have an ARVN Remembrance parade through Ho Chi Minh City every year, like we do in every UK city for our Glorious Dead? I suspect not too wise locally….

You'd probably be correct … I doubt much is said about the ARVN by this time in Vietnam …

Also from the Hill article on Hue.

… the First Division it has been very effective. …

It's effectiveness was brought out in the 1972 "Year of the Rat" offensive, when the NVA sent one of their best divisions, the 324B, to attack Hue. Though the First was caught unsuspecting it still managed to intercept the NVA 324B and sent it retreating back into the Ashau Valley.

Was it An Loc ?

Wikipedipia has a good article on An Loc … but for some reason it won't copy ?

An Loc indeed Thanks for that. Found it.

Another of those moments in history that, like the siege of Khe Sanh, just dominated the news programmes, when the outcomes did seem so uncertain, at the time.

I remember seeing footage on the news back then of AH-1s firing AT weapons taking out some of those PT-76s & T54s.

I saw on the History Channel years ago[when they still showed real history !]. One of the US Army Advisors, a MAJ or LTC(?), at the time, being interviewed long after the war. Who was at An Loc. He said with all the NVA tanks involved. They said we are going to need some tank-busters. They joked they needed to order some Stukas. But they got Cobras instead …

I think that is called "cool under fire" …

Cobra was quite something.

The Apache is the most evil looking thing I have ever seen. Used to regularly fly over our house, as US A-10 tankbusters also did. Neither had the lines of a Spitfire or a P51, but they did carry that incredible air of menace. Can't beat the old F4 Phantom or the F15s that we still see occasionally….beautiful planes

The USMC still uses upgraded Cobras, but the Army uses Apaches. Both very efficient killing machines. I talk about this on another thread here recently … TMP link

I've called in A-10s too. Pretty neat !

Can't beat the old F4 Phantom

Some of the USAF pilots I worked with used to say the F4 proves you can get a brick to fly if you put big enough engines on it.

Great read and led me to Wiki to read more about the upgraded version used by the Marines still, the Viper. It has "aged" well and still looks very futuristic if anything!

many thanks for pointing me that way

Always glad to help ! I have to disseminate all this information before I get recalled to the Mothership …

Legion,
I think the Marines use the upgraded Cobras because they take up less room on a carrier (smaller target), has a longer range, weights 40% less, cheaper, have lower maintenance/fewer electronics to go wrong. There isn't much more the Apache can offer for the mission the Marines have.

I don't think Cobras need all of the sophisticated sensor gear to support troops on the FEBA. Apaches have a heavier payload and the 30mm cannon is great but the Cobra 20mm is more than adequate for non-MBT targets.

Flying Cobras them near the enemy fire is a no-go so no need for the armor. The Marines have fixed-wing for CAS, the Army does not. I don't see the Marines operating Apaches even if the Army gives them for free.

Wolfhag

I knew absolutely nothing about this until a few days ago. I thought Cobras were declared obsolete about the time of Desert Storm. I can now see how different is the current Viper to the Cobra I somehow remember.

Funny old world. The 747 will still be flying, the C130 will still fly over our house, we will be relying on Soyuz technology to get into space..in 2019…insane. Not possible.

Yet Tom Cruise's Tomcat is scrapped, Concorde is only in museums, ACK's/Kubrick's 2001 is no better a prediction than Orwell's 1984 (OK I fully accept neither of those two was meant to be such and both are brilliant)…..

But like Yoda said. "Hard to see the future is"

I think you are correct Wolf on all comments.

And yes, for CAS from fixed wing AC, the Army depends on the USAF. Which generally works out in many cases.

I knew absolutely nothing about this until a few days ago. I thought Cobras were declared obsolete about the time of Desert Storm

Last I looked the Iranians were still flying Cobras and F14s.[But that may have changed ?] That the Shah bought from the US, before the Iranian Revolution.

And we have 8 C-130s at a near by USAFR Base. See them often flying near my house. I'm going there tomorrow night for a Base Community Council dinner/meeting for a donation drive for Christmas gifts for the base families. A good cause and good chow at the Club ! Those Air Force guys usually eat good !