Tango01 | 01 Nov 2019 9:37 p.m. PST |
… Summer Vacation, Wow! How you can paint that!…
Main page
link Amicalement Armand
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4th Cuirassier | 02 Nov 2019 6:22 a.m. PST |
I wanted to create units which were more like boardgame playing pieces And they're still overscale for depth. The only solution to this would appear to be photo-etch figures glues to sheet metal bases. Why not just use cardboard counters? As it is these need labels on the bases to tell you what they are. It would surely be simpler just to use the bases and not bother with the "figures"? |
randy51 | 02 Nov 2019 10:03 a.m. PST |
"Why not just use cardboard counters?",…..Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. |
forwardmarchstudios | 02 Nov 2019 10:21 a.m. PST |
4th Cuirassier- I assure you they are not over-scale for depth. I designed the range to be at precise 2mm scale, so that the figs can be used to recreate scale models of actual battlefields. This extends to the buildings.
How does that look like a bunch of cardboard markers on a hex map?
Or that?? Plus, almost every game system requires labeling after a certain size. And almost all historic OOBs do. |
14Bore | 02 Nov 2019 11:09 a.m. PST |
It is like a 3D board game, love the concept and execution |
Tango01 | 02 Nov 2019 11:50 a.m. PST |
Supreb!…. Amicalement Armand
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bruntonboy | 02 Nov 2019 1:58 p.m. PST |
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forwardmarchstudios | 02 Nov 2019 6:42 p.m. PST |
I'd add that the pics linked to in the first post here are some of the best painted/based up examples of the figs. I love the glowing neon green picture, too. |
Tango01 | 03 Nov 2019 3:47 p.m. PST |
Happy you like them boys!. (smile) Amicalement Armand
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La Belle Ruffian | 03 Nov 2019 4:22 p.m. PST |
Why bother painting toy soldiers when you can just load a computer game with the uniforms? Why bother playing games with toys when you could just read a book to learn about history? If 2mm gaming isn't for you then fair enough, but the cardboard counter comments get old. Forward March Studios has come up with something a bit different, offered more than just files to print on their site and presents wargaming in a way that is obviously pleasing to some. Dismissing people's efforts out of hand isn't helpful. p.s. The neon figures looked great and the painting is effective. The bases are a bit chunky in some shots but I think that's partly to do with the camera angle. When we're looking down at the table it's less of an issue and makes it much easier moving units. |
4th Cuirassier | 03 Nov 2019 5:38 p.m. PST |
The cardboard counter comments get made because they are fair and a common reaction. Looking at those figures, what about them is Napoleonic exactly? |
pbishop12 | 03 Nov 2019 9:23 p.m. PST |
i have the old Airfix Waterloo game from the 70's. The 20mm figures look ok, but this scale on that map be a more fitting representation. Thanks for the idea. |
forwardmarchstudios | 03 Nov 2019 11:18 p.m. PST |
Hi 4th Cuirassier- What I'm doing is a different kind of Napoleonic miniature. The original idea came from two inspirations. First, battlefield paintings that show the vast scale of these battles. I wanted to create that effect affordably. In otherwords, I wanted a zero-abstraction range – what-hou-see-is-what-you-get. Second, it came from looking at the engineering models in Les Invalides. I wanted to create a figure range that could be used to create dioramas of battlefields – or be used for wargames. But, I saw that 3D printing might represent a way forward. I'm able to show units at exactly 1:1 troop/figure ratio. Together with a relatively small scale, this allows you to play games with the correct amount of space between companies, battalions, regiments, etc. This also lets you really see just how far troops would move relative to other actions. This in turn lets you see how closely a set of rules tracks the physical representation on the table top. Is it really realistic for all 500 figures to retreat a certain distance over a certain period of time? I think 2mm can be a tool for fact-checking rules. If you look at the figs above, the modeler obviously set out to represent each company and squadron in the battalions. This is something you never see with larger scales. These units are a bit abstract, but I think it's very clear what they're supposed to represent. Same with the squadrons. |
La Belle Ruffian | 04 Nov 2019 2:20 a.m. PST |
4th Cuirassier – off the top of my head: - realistic looking troop formations - number of troops - a mass of colours, as of troops being viewed at an appropriate distance I don't see any cardboard counters replicating those and it rarely happens with much above 3mm/6mm. Larger troops have more detail of course and I even enjoy painting it sometimes, but a dozen 28mm figures in parade dress purporting to be a battalion requires a healthy suspension of belief in itself. |
4th Cuirassier | 04 Nov 2019 3:01 a.m. PST |
@ LBR - realistic looking troop formations - number of troops - a mass of colours Not convinced, sorry :-) They are two colours each. He gave them a 1mm white stripe along the lower half and a 1mm wide red or blue stripe along the top half, plus an ink wash. That's the colour scheme. They could represent any army, from any date between about 1650 and 1850, from any theatre between north America and central India and points in between. What about them, for example, tells you they aren't an ECW, WMI or Sikh Wars force? Or even an Imperial Roman cohort? What distinguishes line from light from guard? I don't see any cardboard counters replicating those And yet the guy whose figures they are explicitly says that he wanted to create units which were more like boardgame playing pieces. So suggesting they look like boardgame counters isn't exactly an unusual view, it's the view of the actual owner! There could be something to be said for it but TBH it seems to me to be an exercise in inflicting drawbacks on yourself while completely missing the opportunities. With 2mm tall figures you could, for example, have units on bases of the correct depth. Yet here we see exactly the same oversize depth problem afflicting these guys as afflicts all figures in any other scale, except here it's for a different reason. 28mm figures are too deep because they're so physically large. These bases are too deep because the figures are so tiny they need text labels to tell you what they actually are – and the labels account for much of the bases' excess depth! Why not glue 15mm figures onto them and have done with it? The uniforms would tell what the unit is and the bases could be made more realistically shallow. The owner also says he put them on 3mm MDF. So the figures are 2mm tall, but the bases are 150% of that, making the whole thing at least 5mm tall. So they're not really 2mm at all, are they? They're 5mm tall only 40% of which is he height of the figures. Why not go for 6mm figures on steel plate and have done with it? Then pretty much the entire height is figure rather than base. As it is, between the height and the overbasing, probably only about 10% of each base is actual figures. The rest is base. It's like putting a postcard into a 4' square picture frame. Don't get me wrong, I would give the man a game with his figures; I reckon I'd give anyone a game in any era as long as they've got both sides and a set of rules they can explain. I just can't see this as miniatures gaming though. I genuinely do not get why nobody has yet made photo-etched figures in this sort of scale. |
La Belle Ruffian | 04 Nov 2019 3:53 a.m. PST |
4th Cuirassier Why are you apologising? You're welcome to remain unconvinced, but you asked for my opinion and I gave it. I'm not asking you to game in this scale but it's a little depressing when people (not just you) regularly belittle the efforts of others just because they're not to your taste, particularly when a number of your questions (which I assume aren't all rhetorical) are already answered. I don't go over to someone's game at a show I have no interest in and start telling them they're wasting their time or not part of the hobby. Why would you do it online? Firstly. 'board game pieces' are not the same as counters, as games like Mighty Empires demonstrated years ago. If he'd wanted to use counters it would have been much quicker than the process in the article, so there obviously is a reason for the author's choices, as he makes pretty clear in the article. He wants to represent different formations at a near 1:1 scale and the distances between troops and units, with the ability to switch whole bases out as troops change formation. The visuals and ground scale are therefore important and his system has an advantage over counters and larger figures. He also explains why he's not using 15mm figures in the article. You're absolutely right that there are few distinguishing features to mean that you couldn't use them for other horse and musket troops in similar formations – for me that's a feature,given the size and distances being represented in this scale. IIRC FMS does provide some units with pikes and wedge cavalry if you want to go back to the 17th century. As for base thickness, I wouldn't call 6mm figures 9mm because of a 3mm base though, or 28s 31mm. Perhaps you do? With regards photo-etched figures, there's nothing stopping you, knock yourself out. |
James Cullen | 04 Nov 2019 5:43 a.m. PST |
I love this idea. I can see where others may miss the pageantry of the uniforms but for me (and this is just me) this could be the "one true scale". I love the idea that you can actually visualize a 1:1 unit and the area it occupied and address maneveur and movement in this context. For purposes of simulation/gaming I think it is fantastic. For me (and I want this to be clear, this is my personal opinion and I do not judge anyone else for disagreeing or having a different view) 10-30 figure units look silly and the wargames tables with figures lined up from side to side with no room for movement or maneveur just doesn't look right. It makes me think of the Sharpe TV series. Although I loved it as a kid, I always wanted someone to digitally remaster it with proper sized battalions. But, as I said, each to his own. That is the beauty of this hobby--we can all find our niche. |
forwardmarchstudios | 04 Nov 2019 7:59 a.m. PST |
I think this conversation led to a sale : ) I did not say that I set out to create cardboard markers. I said that I created a sub-set of the figures that could be used like cardboard game pieces. There are other figures that can be used for abstracted unit, or for 1:1 models. There are hundreds of models in the Library, and all troop types come in a variety of sizes and styles. 4th Cuirassier- why do you keep saying there is "outsized depth" on those models? Each block has 90 figures on it. That is a full sized company. In the case of the French, one company is missing due to deployment as skirmishers. Thus, the model is at a reasonable 1:1 figure/troop ratio. If you zoom in, you can see exactly how big each model is in relation to the base. If the bases are 20mm deep that works out to 60 scale feet. Or, 10 of the 2mm figures laid down head to foot. About 20m. That is not an oversized base. I don't know why you're saying that. If anything the footprint is too small because battalion commanders typically stood back further than here. |
La Belle Ruffian | 04 Nov 2019 9:38 a.m. PST |
FMS, I'm pleased to hear it. I bought the library some months ago but have yet to print some off as I'm currently working on some 6mm mdf ACW from Commission Figurines. He also does Napoleonics and I saw his troops based for Blucher at a show. Each nationality had troops in different formations to help distinguish them at a distance and give them some character. What I'm hoping to do with yours, inspired by his work, is put together a lighter, more flexible C&C Napoleonics set. I already have multiple C&C sets for other eras but don't really want to pick up multiple boxes filled with wood blocks to give me a good range of scenarios. My thinking is to to print off some of your figures and base them up in the style of Commission but on bases which will fit into a C&C hex. Given that one hex can often represent an entire town, your figures seems a better fit. The other bonus is that it should be pretty easy to put together some other Horse & Musket sets. I quite fancy various wars involving Prussions. All a bit abstract but I like doing the scenario research and playing more than painting. What I liked in the article as well was the storage suggestions. I travel quite a bit and it's nice to have a few options. |
Asteroid X | 04 Nov 2019 11:10 a.m. PST |
Perhaps some are just too used to ratios of 1 figure representing 20, 50 or 100 or more figures. They just cannot wrap their heads around a far more realistic miniatures scale. This gives a very good birds eye view. I was initially thinking the basing looked too large with too much empty space at the front and rear of the figures. Then I realized there HAS to be this way. No commander is going to match his unit right up to another. The units require cohesion to be effective and to be able to maneuver and to do this they NEED the spacing. |
La Belle Ruffian | 04 Nov 2019 3:59 p.m. PST |
As the article says, it's horses for courses wmyers. Wargaing is a very subjective hobby and we all have our own readons and preferences. Personally I like that variety and the opportunity to try something new. One thing which did occur to me when looking at the later pictures was how the bases could make life easier – no more measuring to check if your line is supported – if the bases are touching that's enough. I know I've been guilty of squeezing troops into spaces they couldn't possibly fit before, so a more realistic approach to formation footprint does appeal. |
GildasFacit | 05 Nov 2019 3:52 a.m. PST |
Having first demonstrated 2mm figures (Irregular Miniatures) at a wargames show over 20 years ago I'm sort of used to comments of this sort. At least LBR is prepared to try out these more advanced ideas on the original concepts, that's more result than I got in my 'wargaming on a handkerchief' display all those years ago. Personally I don't get this 'you can't tell them apart' complaint. How many people watching a game, or even those participating sometimes, know which uniform is which ? Even at 54mm I'd defy most gamers to tell some of the helmeted heavy cavalry apart across a table. Also think about what a general would need to do if troops appeared in the distance on his flank, exactly where he had been told to expect his supports. Would he bother to wait until he could see their flags ? Stop thinking 'toy soldiers' and start thinking battlefield realities. Give generals a realistically small and compact command so that they can remember where each unit they command is so that even labels aren't essential. Wargaming in 'map scale' is far from a new approach (think Kriegspiel) but this is an excellent way of doing it. Tony Hughes of TTT |
Trajanus | 05 Nov 2019 10:48 a.m. PST |
I'd like to see some of the new basing, en masse, on the map like table top shown above. I think in some ways they are necessary but I wonder if they look as good. Although they would certainly help with unit ID and the pain in the butt of moving large numbers of individual 2mm pieces around, that used to drive me nuts, back in the day. |
forwardmarchstudios | 05 Nov 2019 11:38 a.m. PST |
Hi Trajanus, do you mean the deployed models? I have a division worth each of French and Prussians printed up, I just need to get them painted up. I'm also curious to see how those will look… |
La Belle Ruffian | 05 Nov 2019 3:49 p.m. PST |
Thanks Tony. Always open to trying new things in gaming. I'll happily push figures around at the club night in a game of GdeB (I have thousands of 15mm), but it only scratches one itch and that's the social aspect. I'm looking at sabots for Blucher and that's when I accept certain things in a game with battalions will be missing as they're not relevant. Sometimes I'd like to see the aerial shots from Waterloo and FMS makes a beautiful looking game. I remember seeing the adverts for 2mm Irregular back in the day, but I'd just got into their 6mm Ancients, including those blocks of close order infantry. What I'm thinking more about now is that with the smaller scales it's about modelling formations with minatures and in the larger scales it's usually modelling men with miniatures. I like both and board games besides. I quite enjoy C&C just for the scenarios and finding out more about a battle without having to invest too much time in it. |
grambo | 07 Nov 2019 7:17 a.m. PST |
I have personally been eyeing up these figures for some time now because I can see the potential for playing Commands & Colors Napoleonics with them instead of the blocks. I can see that maybe cut down into smaller 'units' and based on very thin bases some very convincing playing pieces could be produced. I like the product a lot and as a painter of over 40 years who has painted every scale from 2mm to 40mm I reckon I have some ideas for painting them that could take them to the next level. I currently have a collection of 550 x 40mm Peninsular Napoleonics but still yearn for a good old game of C&C (I have the base game plus 5 expansions), easy to set up, great scenarios and a game played to a conclusion in around an hour and half or so. I did something along the same lines in 6mm a few years ago, but even they looked a tad on the big side on the board (see pics below), I know that I am going to try my hand at these 2mm 3D printed figures at some point. A quick question for you ForwardMarchstudios…..would it be possible to print the files slightly larger, say 3mm scale and if so what would be the result? This what I would have in mind with your figures. Cheers, Lee.
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forwardmarchstudios | 07 Nov 2019 8:21 a.m. PST |
Grambo- that army looks great! I'm surprised no one else has done Command and Colors with my figures yet; I do think that it would work pretty well – plus it would probably cost less than the game itself! You can always print an object smaller or larger by adjusting the "%" of the print size. For 3mm, you would print the figures at 150%. |
grambo | 08 Nov 2019 2:08 a.m. PST |
Thank you Forward march studios. I'm currently packing up my house in Spain to return to the UK. Once settled after Christmas I'm going to purchase your set of files and see what I can do with Commands & Colors. I have a friend with a 3D printer but know little about the technology although it fascinates me. |