"Is it normal for new players to get a lot of hate?" Topic
17 Posts
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Tango01 | 31 Oct 2019 10:06 p.m. PST |
Interesting question… link Amicalement Armand
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Flashman14 | 01 Nov 2019 4:49 a.m. PST |
Irrelevant to miniature gamers right? |
jamemurp | 01 Nov 2019 5:50 a.m. PST |
Most public online game communities are toxic cesspools filled with emotional immaturity and verbal abuse, which is pretty par for most online public spaces that allow relative anonymity with minimal policing. Shockingly, there are is a significant number of people that misbehave when they feel there are no consequences for poor behavior. This is one of the strengths of decent wargaming communities. Real social interaction discourages such anti-social behavior, generally with exclusion. Of course, a group may still be obnoxious or exclusionary, but I would say that is generally less common (and less severe) than in online games. Indeed, many RPG groups are very open to gamers of all types and actively fight the negative stereotypes of the monochromatic, male, intolerant nerd bullies that have become associated with such niche games. Wargames (and to a lesser extent cardgames, with some notable exceptions), in my experience, have been less successful in shedding some of those attitudes and remain somewhat insular, making many of them much more difficult to enter for women, POC, etc. and limiting their overall appeal and expansion. |
ochoin | 01 Nov 2019 6:22 a.m. PST |
Good post, jamemurp. I think more work has to be done on inherent human tendencies towards Xenophobia. I think the problem has a more deep seated source and turning, even savagely, on the newcomer/stranger, may well be in our DNA. Related is the extreme nationalism, racism & misogyny that dogs internet forums. This is not to excuse anti-social tendencies and, indeed, to know your weaknesses is an important step in countering them. Without being too critical, TMP is not immune to this and it might prove interesting to read further responses to the OP (& subsequent posts) from other members. |
robert piepenbrink | 01 Nov 2019 9:49 a.m. PST |
Ochoin, if you think sniping at others from safe anonymity is a bad thing, I can suggest a way you might reduce it. Sadly, since the self-proclaimed newbie in Armand's link doesn't tell us what sort of game he's playing or how he--if it is a he--is playing it, blaming an online game community--or any other, community, come to that--is pure speculation. |
Tgerritsen | 01 Nov 2019 10:26 a.m. PST |
Actually, the link is to a reddit page for a very specific game- so if you read it, it actually does tell you what sort of game he's playing and the specific community he is talking about. That game is: link This honestly has nothing to do with miniatures games or gamers. |
Davidjames | 01 Nov 2019 12:22 p.m. PST |
It's about online pc gaming? |
robert piepenbrink | 01 Nov 2019 1:06 p.m. PST |
Thank you, TGerritsen. Clearly technology is advancing faster than I am--again. Can't speak to online multi-player at all, and I've been out of RPG's so long I can't speak for the current culture. But I can say that I've been a newbie in a lot of miniature wargames over the years, and have always been treated with courtesy. |
ochoin | 01 Nov 2019 1:13 p.m. PST |
Ochoin, if you think sniping at others from safe anonymity is a bad thing, I can suggest a way you might reduce it. Censorship? |
Col Durnford | 01 Nov 2019 5:32 p.m. PST |
More like "don't hide behind a fake name". |
robert piepenbrink | 01 Nov 2019 6:07 p.m. PST |
Or "spend less time sniping." |
ochoin | 01 Nov 2019 10:58 p.m. PST |
They're your solutions, gentlemen? Sadly, I don't think they'd work as they haven't to date. |
CeruLucifus | 02 Nov 2019 11:22 a.m. PST |
The link is to a forum for the video game Wargame: Red Dragon. Not a site for general wargaming like TMP. |
von Schwartz | 02 Nov 2019 7:01 p.m. PST |
I've been involved in a number of games and different scenarios involving all sorts of people with widely disparate backgrounds and levels of experience and/or expertise. In general, the more experienced or veteran gamers were very helpful and outgoing offering assistance to those less experienced. Of course, that being said, there are assholes all around us and you need to learn to deal with them. |
ochoin | 03 Nov 2019 6:09 p.m. PST |
Interesting that I received two, unsolicited PMs prompted by this thread. They were quite abusive. I think we're kidding ourselves if we think that trolling isn't ubiquitous and expressing contrary viewpoints is without risk. |
etotheipi | 06 Nov 2019 11:04 a.m. PST |
I think more work has to be done on inherent human tendencies towards Xenophobia. I think the problem has a more deep seated source and turning, even savagely, on the newcomer/stranger, may well be in our DNA. There are certainly human tendencies like the above mentioned, and they are evolutionarily reinforced. In a hunter-gatherer society, it's not a bad idea not to trust someone new until you know their motives … and competency. But we're not talking about a hunter-gatherer society. However, many of the external pressures carry over to wargaming and are somewhat different for other types of games. So you end up with similar environmental reinforcement of those behaivours. In a hunter-gatherer society, we have to invest a lot of work into gathering and a lot of work plus not insignificant personal safety risk into hunting. And in that case, a negative outcome counters the survival imperative. So until you are confident someone is vested in community success (survival) and capable of competent participation, trusting that person is higher risk than trusting others whom you know better. Hunter-gatherer skills are partially instinctive, but also partially learned. When you move to a higher and more efficient performance level (such as coordinated hunting a large food animal or moving the entire group to follow ripening seasons) the skills become more learned and less instinctive. And they become more dependent on local corporate knowledge … There are lots of ways for five guys to bring down a waterbuffalo, but you're best and safest if all five guys are using the same way. So, hopefully, there are some obvious parallels to wargaming – and other gaming, hobbies, activities, etc. – in the above brief description. Tabletop wargames tend to rely heavily on corporate knowledge of the specific rules being played and local knowledge of custom and how ambiguities in the rules are resolved. Add to that "house rules", and the barrier to entry for the newbie becomes high. Commensurately, the requirements for trust by the current group are also high. Of course, we are not risking our personal and group survival on failure. We are risking not enjoying the activity. But that is the whole point of playing in the first place. And enjoyment is not just limited to the participation in the specific game, but it is a placeholder for the effort we have invested in the game beforehand, the effort we have invested in the rules beforehand, and to some extent, the overall effort we have invested in wargaming, lifetime. So not a serious risk, but that risk represents a lot of hard work on our part. So it feels like a big risk if we don't enjoy the game, even if we are only losing a few hours of enjoyment. Adding to the perception weight is how much wargaming is "your time" to do "your thing". Again, this links the active hours to a broader context – It's not "I didn't enjoy the last three hours", it's "I am not going to enjoy this activity for another two (four? six?) weeks." So compared to another social hobby activity, like watching sports in a group (preferably at a pub) or participating in a knitting circle, the new person's unknown ability has a much larger impact. I think this is part of the success of MMOGs. The venue is large enough for people to group into risk equity groups. And this grouping is facilitated by player "levels" which give an external validation of competence and ability. So what? Well, thinking in these terms can both help a newbie understand the environment they are entering and try to fit in better and help teh grognards and greybeards to understand how to better facilitate newbies. Both can benefit from having a more deliberate understanding of the social dynamic and having less an emotional response to events based on the external pressures. |
ochoin | 06 Nov 2019 12:29 p.m. PST |
A thoughtful & thought-provoking response from etotheipi. |
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