"M7 Priest versus Mk V Panther" Topic

"On the always interesting Art of Manliness podcast an interview with author Adam Makos, who has published a book about "one of WW2's greatest tank gunners", Clarence Smoyer.

After listening, I read Makos' Spearhead: An American Tank Gunner, His Enemy, and a Collision of Lives in World War II and recommend it for the insight into daily life of a tanker on the West Front. The book features Smoyer's counterpart, Gustav Schaefer, a Panther tank gunner. Ultimately, both gunners meet up in front of the Cologne Cathedral in an encounter caught on film, then would meet again many years later on better terms…"
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Amicalement
Armand

Throughout the war the American's best defense against tanks was their artillery. Not usually in a direct fire role, though! :)

Some times FA was used in a direct fire role but that not what they were designed for. However, the situation may require it. E.g. You see in some photos of the fighting for Berlin. USSR FA firing FA directly at buildings etc. And at close range.

IIRC the US even produced HEAT rds. for their 105. And in Korea they even engaged Nork T34/85s.

I just finished reading the book and thought it was very good. But it is a Pershing vs a Panther not a priest.

HE hitting a tank directly could seriously damage it and even hurt the crew even if the armour wasn't breached.

Even if not hit directly, exposed crew, tracks and things like optics and guns could be damaged. Concussion and shockwaves could kill crew even behind armour.

Direct hits could have all sorts of interesting effects. It can twist the tank's armour to such a degree the turret would be stuck or even blow off doors and hatches, wheels and tracks could be blown clear off by a sufficiently large impact.

There are reports of large caliber guns knocking off turrets in some cases.

And as said in the article the first to get a shot off usually wins the day even if it's only mobile artillery.

But it is a Pershing vs a Panther not a priest.

From the article:

Early in the book, an ambush of a column of Sherman tanks is described from Schaefer's point of view. I found this passage intriguing as the tables were turned on the Germans by the appearance of an M7 Priest which scored several direct hits on Schaefer's Panther, causing it to retreat then disabling it. I was surprised that the mobile artillery platform could engage Panthers and survive.
…
In the book the Priest engaged the Panther at two miles away and was undetected until after scoring its first hit, which was a HE round of white phosphorus. Schaefer recalls another hit on the Panther's slanted front armor before the M7 was spotted. After two more hits in quick succession fissures started forming up and down the armor welds in the interior convincing the tank commander to retreat. In order to maneuver behind a grove of trees and out of the M7's LOS, the Panther's left side is exposed and the left track is hit. The Panther is still able to move but by the time the wheels roll off the last track the tank is safe behind cover.

It appears that the title does not reference the well-known Pershing-v-Panther engagement at the Cathedral, but an earlier event as recounted by the German Panther gunner. And he is quite explicit that he is speaking of an M7 Priest.

That said, I would expect he was actually engaged by multiple adversaries, and only identified one in the process of being pommeled. I don't expect a single M7 could get so many direct hits in quick succession on a point target, nevermind a moving target, at 2k range.

But then, in combat things don't always go as we might expect.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Yes, that M26 V. Mk.V is very famous and was filmed as it happened.

the Panther's left side is exposed and the left track is hit. The Panther is still able to move but by the time the wheels roll off the last track the tank is safe behind cover.

A Mobility Kill – could cause the crew to abandon the vehicle.

I bought a troop of M7s from The Plastic Soldier Company. They're still in the process of being finished but they're nice models.

I've never seen the point of off-table artillery in a wargame, so I have any arty I use, sitting on the back edge (helps to remind you, that you have them, too).

I must admit, I quite like the idea of giving the Priests a more active role, keeping in mind they will be quite vulnerable to return fire.

Yep, large, heavy rounds can do some damage to enemy vehicles, especially in the direct-fire mode. Shock damage to the vehicle and crew, not to mention knocking off tread and damaging bogies, periscopes, sights, radio antennae, etc., etc..

The old Tractics rules considered this when firing HE vs. armored vehicles. Obviously, 150mm – 155mm+ rounds do even more damage, but 4" rounds shouldn't be discounted either.

I must admit, I quite like the idea of giving the Priests a more active role, keeping in mind they will be quite vulnerable to return fire.

Priests were often present at the tank battalion level too, particularly early in the ETO campaign.

Every medium tank battalion was supposed to have an assault gun platoon. Until Sherman 105mm production ramped up to fill all such unit TOEs, M7s were frequently seen in the role.

So having 2 or 3 Priests in the front lines (well, maybe not the front front, but in the back of the front) is reasonable and not too unlikely. Although by the time a Pershing was rolling into Cologne it is likely that everyone had as many Sherman 105s as they needed to fill their TOEs.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Thanks, Mark. Noted.

This will give you an idea of what 152mm can do:
link

Some of the large-caliber HE shells had a low velocity but not a lot of penetration. However, a large round achieving a partial penetration with the then 13kg of HE exploding will blow a hole a lot bigger than 152mm in the armor.

Wolfhag

Thats why I love 10mm my arty is on table at varying scales.
A Wespe firing H.E. wrecks sights, shakes up the crew messes up calibtarion and can break radio valves.
Nice link Wolfhag :)

Yes, no doubt larger caliber FA, e.g. 152, 155, etc., even 105, can not only damage an AFV but in some cases destroy/KO it.

I think the book was Tank Commander. It was a Sherman CO Commander. They liked the 75mm Sherman. One thing overlooked is that the Sherman had better sights than the Germans. They aimed to get the firt Round in (HE) then due to the rate of fire keep it up and they almost always out numberd the enemy , with constant HE fire they were unable to return fire effectively. In such circumstances the enemy had no option to retire. In such situations that was enough, you could call other assets to get rid of the vehicle. The 75mm being short meant it easier to use in close terrain as its length did not get in the way so much.

Yes I admit it, even Maneouvre Group rules does not cover this. It is a bit unique and would require special rules and is more about weapons than basic tactics. We could easily add the rules but it would probably need a lot to stop it being stupid.

In reality quite a few Tigers were lost to Artillery. In Tigers in combat a Tiger was ordered by an infantry commander to hold a hill overnight. It was lost to artillery fire. I assume the issue was that a Tiger can't move all night, insufficient fuel, so in the en it has to stop and the Artillery can range in and in the end get a few hits and it done for.

Thanks!.

Amicalement
Armand

"In the book the Priest engaged the Panther at two miles away and was undetected until after scoring its first hit, which was a HE round of white phosphorus"

I believe the author of the article mistakenly conflates HE with White Phosphorous rounds. They are distinctly different ammunition types. White phosphorous was officially issued as a smoke round, but it also had a very high incendiary effect, stuck to anything it hit and could asphyxiate the crew or set the engine afire if drawn into the interior of a target tank. In fact, White Phosphorous (when available) was a favorite ammunition type of US tankers to blind enemy tanks and encourage their withdrawal when engaging at ranges at which normal AP rounds were unable to make a sufficiently convincing case.

B

I must acknowledge the experts on this thread who've given me insight: Mark1, UshCha, Wolfhag & Blutarski.

I don't really know much about WW2 but always keen to learn.

Thanks.

Yep, large, heavy rounds can do some damage to enemy vehicles, especially in the direct-fire mode. Shock damage to the vehicle and crew, not to mention knocking off tread and damaging bogies, periscopes, sights, radio antennae, etc., etc..

The old Tractics rules considered this when firing HE vs. armored vehicles. Obviously, 150mm – 155mm+ rounds do even more damage, but 4" rounds shouldn't be discounted either.

Heh, I remember one of Pier's BG-Fall of the Reich battle reports when he had one of those monster Soviet 203mm B-4 howitzers get a hit on a Puma/234 armored car.

I joked that the round didn't even need to go off to smash that Puma!

Sorta baffled by the notion that a M7 Priest could not kill a Panther. At the very least, it could disable it by blowing off a track.
105-HEP rounds can destroy a modern tank today. Killing the crew of a tank does not take round penetration. The wounds are generated by spalling. And spalling will result from a penetration hit or just a solid hit on the tank. So even a M7 with a 75mm could damage the tank. (though the 106mm is more likely at that late date).

Hi Rudy,
Spalling, as I understand it, is far more associated with post WW2 "squash-head" rounds (which were specifically designed to produce that effect) than with conventional HE rounds.

FWIW.

B

In WWII it was mostly brittle armor and weak welds that had the spalling problem from HE and AP hits. Mostly Russian, Italian and late war Germans.

The US 105mm M1 shell has 4 pounds of explosive. That's pretty significant. The HEAT round claimed about 100mm of penetration but since the shell was spinning I doubt it ever actually achieved that. The concrete piercing could penetrate 200+mm at 500m. A 40lb shell traveling at 1550 fps is most likely going to do some type of damage or force a withdraw. An HE round with a delay fuse should penetrate 75-100mm of armor inside of 500m.

It also had a WP round.

Wolfhag

Wolfhag,
What is your source on 105mm HE + delay fuze = 75-100mm armor penetration inside 500m?

B

Thanks Tango for linking to the blog post.

I believe the author of the article mistakenly conflates HE with White Phosphorous rounds. They are distinctly different ammunition types.

Another difference is the WP had a tracer and HE does not. So the first shot can be corrected on if they see the tracer. One thing to remember is the Sherman had poorer sights than the German.

A votre service mon ami!. (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Blutarski,
The 105mm HEAT penetration of 128mm I got from WWII Ballistics and Armor. Also the 4.9lb HE filler on the HE round.

AAR from 2nd LT Thomas Bruce, 2nd AD: "On one occasion I obtained a complete penetration in one side and out the other of a turret on a Mark IV with a 75mm HE set on delay at 100m range". The 75 HE delay should travel about 25m before exploding.

A 25lb or 105HE bursting on the lower mantlet of a Panther was enough to cave in the roof armor (19mm?) and cause damage. Not sure of the source.

I'm not sure of any source that gives penetration and damage/spalling of armor from HE hits. I estimate it's about 1/3 of the HE caliber but would also depend on the range.

Wolfhag

Mark Diehl gives the 105mm HE as penetrating 45mm in AFV-G2 No range is given.
Using N-4636B Terminal Ballistics Data Vol II Table 27 as a guild it says 105mm M3 (1550 f/s) can penetrate 1.4 feet of concrete at 500 yds. This usually means that armor is 1/10 to 1/12 of concrete so would be up to 42.6mm.
Nathan Okun has a naval armor penetration formula for HE where this shell penetrates 43mm at 500 yds.
It should noted that this type of penetration involves the armor breaking and large fragments entering the interior of whatever is behind it rather than the HE shell actually passing through the armor.

A UK table gives the penetration of the 105mm M67 HEAT shell as 120mm @ 20°.
A US table gives the penetration of the M67 HEAT as 5" to 5.5" at normal angle of impact.
Table from Military Attache Report gives the penetration of the M67 HEAT as 130-141mm @30°.

One more. Hunnicutt has the 105mm HEAT as only penetrating 102mm @ 0°.