WarEmblem | 22 Oct 2019 8:31 p.m. PST |
I'm having a difficult time nailing down the uniform for 1815 Prussian Lancers. I have the Philip Haythornthwaite book and while it does have uniforms for Landwehr lancers the one illustration of a line lancer doesn't match-up with other online plates (or figure manufacturers). I've seen plates and illustrations of Prussian lancers in shako and czapka in the litewka and in the short coat in both black and blue. It's all quite confounding! Best I can figure, the 6th Lancers were formed from Brunswicks Black Band of 1809 and kept the black litewka and shako. However, I simply can't nail down what the 1st (West Prussian) 2nd (Silesian) 3rd (Brandenberg) and 4th (Pomeranian) lancers wore. Does anyone have any insights? |
rmaker | 22 Oct 2019 8:42 p.m. PST |
Blue coats (usually litewkas in the field), covered shakos (the only Prussian Uhlans to wear czapkas before 1816 were the Garde Uhlan squadron and the 3rd Silesian Landwehr). Facings (collar, cuffs, and probably shoulder straps) in provincial color (tile red, yellow, scarlet, and white respectively). Gray overalls. |
Glengarry5 | 22 Oct 2019 10:11 p.m. PST |
The Brunswick Black Band in 1809 went to Spain to continue the war against Napoleon. In 1815 two squadrons of the cavalry Luetzow's Freikorps were formed into the 6th Uhlans. Like the Brunswickers Luetzows wore an all-black uniforms of Hussar style. At Waterloo they wore predominantly black hussar uniforms, along officers in Uhlan uniforms and officers transferred from other units in green, brown, red, blue and black! So yes. it's complicated. ! |
BillyNM | 22 Oct 2019 10:55 p.m. PST |
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Green Tiger | 23 Oct 2019 1:51 a.m. PST |
Stephen Summerfield wrote a book about them |
BillyNM | 23 Oct 2019 5:21 a.m. PST |
I've got the Stephen Summerfield book if you're after something specific and can't find it on the Cent Jours web-site I could look it up. |
ColCampbell | 23 Oct 2019 7:35 a.m. PST |
Here's the link to the 6th Uhlans from the centjours web site. Describes them as
This regiment was created on April 17, 1815 in Dinant from 2 squadrons of Uhlans of the Lützow Free Corps, a squadron of hussars of the same corps, as well as a squadron of Bremen volunteers. As all these troops wore a black uniform, they spoke of the "black regiment". [NOTE: 6th Uhlans had 1st & 2nd squadrons in plain black letewka, 3rd squadron in hussar style dolmans (all three in shakos), and 4th squadron (Bremen volunteers) in czapkas and black litewkas.] All of the other cavalry regiments, both line and landwehr, are depicted, including the 3rd Silesian Landwehr Cavalry Regiment in its czapkas. Jim |
WarEmblem | 23 Oct 2019 12:56 p.m. PST |
In looking through the cent jours web site I can see why there is such discrepancy! The uniform diversity is fairly wide. Very useful for the lance pennons. Well, thank you, gentlemen, this gives me something to chew over and a multitude of options for representing the brigade. |
Oliver Schmidt | 24 Oct 2019 4:58 a.m. PST |
The cavalry of Lützow's cavalry regiment had received new uniforms in 1814, all black hussar style. Of the 4 squadrons existing in early 1815, in April the 1st squadron was transferd to be part of the newly formed 9. Husaren-Regiment. The remaining three squadrons of the now 6. Ulanen-Regiment counted only 354 men and therefore were augmented by 103 men of the 8. Ulanen-Regiment. There is no indication whether the latter arrived in black or green dolmans. In the beginning of June, the regiment was re-organised in four squadrons, each made up from a fourth of the men of the old three squadrons and of the men form the 8. Ulanen-Regiment. In addition, there was the Bremen volunteers squadron, their uniform is depicted in the Elberfeld manuscript and shown in Philip Haythornthwaite's book. Peter Hofschröer's Osprey: "The Prussian Army of the Lower Rhine 1815" is based on German regimental histories and fairly accurate. The best you can get at the time written in English about Prussian uniforms in 1815. His other Ospreys about the Prussian uniforms are equally accurate. |
Oliver Schmidt | 24 Oct 2019 5:16 a.m. PST |
And by the way, the official uniforms for the Ulanen regiments never had provincial colours. Buttons were brass. All collars and cuffs were red, with white, red and yellow shoulder straps for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd regiment by anciennity. Means, the Westpreußisches Ulanen-Regiment had white, the Schlesisches Ulanen-Regiment red and the Brandenburgisches Ulanen-Regiment yellow shoulder straps). The uniforms (theoretically) introduced for the newly formed regiments in 1815 followed this pattern, by adding white buttons as a distinction. 4. Ulanen-Regiment: blue shoulder straps, yellow buttons. 5. to 8 Ulanen-Regiment: white, red, yellow or blue shoulder straps, white buttons. |
WarEmblem | 24 Oct 2019 9:11 p.m. PST |
The other part of sorting through the uniforms is matching them up with my figures. I have AB lancers in czapkas which seem destined to end up Poles. (All came in a batch so I don't know what they originally were) In doing further reading it seems the Prussians introduced the czapka to the Uhlans in 1815 but they likely would not have received these by Waterloo. I have Old Glory Uhlans in cloth caps and litewkas. What are probably mini-figs in covered shakos and kollets and Essex figures in kollets and shakos but with a lace band in front and not covered. I'm thinking of filing off the band and making those shakos covered. I imagine it wouldn't be uncommon for troopers to be in both shako and cap in the same formation. Whether or not they would be wearing kollets and litewkas I'm not sure. I suppose I could paint different regiments in the brigade with one regiment in shakos/kollets and the other in caps/litewkas but if all are wearing Prussian blue with red collars I'm not sure it matters at 15mm. |
Oliver Schmidt | 24 Oct 2019 10:22 p.m. PST |
Have a look in Peter Hofschröer's "The Prussian Army of the Lower Rhine 1815". He gives detailed info about the uniforms actually worn by 6th, 7th and 8th Ulanen. Or here; TMP link TMP link Cavalrymen in caps are very unlikely, as the shako gave a necessary protection against sword cuts in melee. |
WarEmblem | 25 Oct 2019 7:27 a.m. PST |
Great links Oliver, especially the 1815 Prussian Uhlans thread. Thank you for those and other information you have provided. Per the cloth caps – on page 158 Haythornethwaite writes of plate 72/73 "The usual shako was worn, covered with a black "waterproof" on campaign; grey cloth caps with red bands were also used." Do you what source he is referencing here? |
Oliver Schmidt | 25 Oct 2019 7:57 a.m. PST |
Haythornthwaite here probably speaks of the forage cap (gray cloth caps with a red band, identical for all the Ulanen regiments), which were introduced in this shape in 1808. |
gounour | 25 Oct 2019 10:17 a.m. PST |
Personally I used Bourcier's "les Prussiens à Waterloo" (in French), which is wonderfully illustrated with colour plates he gives : 5th regt, 2 regular Sqdn, 3rd is Berg hussars, no 4th 6th regt 3 sqdn lutzow hussards with lances (covered shako and dolman) 1 sqdn bremen Volt (czapska + litewka) lances too 7th regt 1sqdn Helwig hussards with lances (czapska+dolman), 1sqdn V/6th hussards, no lances, 1sqdn V/Schill hussards, no lances, 1sqdn prinz clemens saxon uhlans with lances (kurtka+czapska) 8th regt 3sqdns Russo-german legion hussars, no lances, 1sqdn priz clemens uhlans with lances the berg hussards had kept their french style shakos, so they had a oilskin cover over it to prevent mistakes litewka were still present in regular sqsn, but rare, mostly the Kollet was worn with regular shakos |
Oliver Schmidt | 25 Oct 2019 11:08 a.m. PST |
Bourdier, as nicely illustrated as he is, unfortunately is a very unreliable source with a lot of mistakes. See my remark below (11 Jul 2011 10:23 a.m) for some examples: TMP link |
WarEmblem | 25 Oct 2019 4:12 p.m. PST |
Question Oliver – What would Prussian upper echelon cavalry officers (Colonels & Generals) be wearing in 1815? Would they be dressed as Prussian general officers or would they gravitate toward regimental uniforms? |
von Winterfeldt | 26 Oct 2019 12:04 a.m. PST |
I agree with Oliver, – Bourdier is completely unreliable, a cause of many misunderstandings about the outlook of the new Prussian Army. Prussian generals would wear more or less their generals uniforms, other Princes of Royal blood who did also wear regimental uniform, as for colonels in brigade function they would wear their regimental uniform and most likely the hat, they wouldn't wear the specific general uniform of the Prussian Army – in 1815 a not so high collar as in the past but closed and not open any longer. |
Oliver Schmidt | 26 Oct 2019 1:15 a.m. PST |
A colonel (Oberst) would of course don the regimental uniform, as he was not entitled to wear the general's uniform. There were few generals who still were Regiments-Chef and thus had the right to wear the regimental uniform. I haven't come accross any sources whether some of them did it in the field. When wearing the regimental uniform by a general is mentioned in regimental histories, it was on parade, in order to honour or please his regiment. The last time that Blücher appeared in the uniform of his regiment, the Pommersches Husaren-Regiment, seems to have been in 1810. |
von Winterfeldt | 26 Oct 2019 5:25 a.m. PST |
I was under the impression that one of the princes did wear a dragoon uniform at Kulm, or was it artillery?? Richard Knötel made a plate, didn't he carry a colour?? |
Oliver Schmidt | 26 Oct 2019 7:01 a.m. PST |
Prinz August in the battle of Kulm, at the head of the 2. Schlesisches Infanterie-Regiment, by Röchling. Prinz August, General-Major since 11 November 1807, had been made Regiments-Chef of the Ostpreußische Artillerie-Brigade ("brigade" here means: regiment) on 8 August 1808. He was made General-Lieutenant on 14 March 1813, and became Brigade-Chef of the 12. Brigade on 21 August 1813. If Röchling is right, he prefered to wear the uniform of his artillery regiment, and that is why he has got the black artillery distinctions here.
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Oliver Schmidt | 26 Oct 2019 7:08 a.m. PST |
Prinz Wilhelm, brother of the king, was Regiments-Chef of the Brandenburgisches Dragoner-Regiment. There are several portraits of him, all in the dragoons uniform, therefore depicting him as Regiments-Chef. But this doesn't necessarily mean he wore this uniform also on campaign.
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von Winterfeldt | 26 Oct 2019 12:09 p.m. PST |
very nice portrait thanks |
SHaT1984 | 31 Oct 2019 4:53 p.m. PST |
Artwork is a subjective opinion unless cited with a source or eyewitness. And lets face it, any general in any army can wear what they damn well like in the field (did Wellington wear regulation uniform?? No sirreee). As for research, look at the history of units, then any 'enhancements' that may have been made over the progressive campaigns. Not all 'regulations' were enacted, instantly, uniformly. Even less after a campaign starts. Litewkas or kollets is largely immaterial in wargaming terms. Perhaps more so in large scale modelling. Use and paint what you want. Haythornthwaite books are pretty dated now. Sources that may have been unavailable are now 'offered' via the net whereas in his time (and mine) you had to be lucky enough to get there and obtain your own through diligent search and contacts. Just sayin' davew |
WarEmblem | 05 Nov 2019 7:53 p.m. PST |
While litewkas and kollets may be immaterial in wargaming terms, they are pertinent in figure choice. I am a firm believer in use what you want but I also enjoy the historical background of the hobby. The accouterments of Generals always fascinate me – especially the cavalry Generals. Murat had a panoply of uniforms, the famous painting of LaSalle depicts him in a hussar uniform and both Kellerman and Milhaud are shown in cuirasses. Now, of course, the Napoleonic French Army had a far different tradition than the Prussian Army so I'm unsure how much pressure (either peer/social or regulations) there was for Prussian Generals to conform in their battlefield attire. |
von Winterfeldt | 06 Nov 2019 5:24 a.m. PST |
Litewkas or kollets is largely immaterial in wargaming terms. Two totally different garments, they could even be different in colour, like for the Prussian cuirassiers, there this would matter how to sculpt them, it would matter for the historical minded wargamer as well. You would even find this in Nash. |