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"French Flanquers Grenadiers - need some uniform advice" Topic


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Sir Able Brush13 Oct 2019 8:10 a.m. PST

The two sources I have dont help me decide one thing…

the red on the coat – is is just the lining of the tails (with the tails green with a yellow line) – or are the turnbacks also red ?

Dave Jackson Supporting Member of TMP13 Oct 2019 8:55 a.m. PST

What 2 sources are you using? ( so I don't duplicate)

Sir Able Brush13 Oct 2019 10:49 a.m. PST

Thank's Dave:

Paul Dawson's latest book on the infantry (which gives me the impression the red wqs probably only a lining, not on the turnback itself)

https://amzn.to/2Mas0QU

which is also here:

PDF link

and Elting's books of knotel plates

https://amzn.to/2VDO9dm

I've looked in Rousselot but couldn't find anything.

Sir Able Brush13 Oct 2019 11:18 a.m. PST

The reason why I'm confused is the illustrations appear to show red only as the lining of the tails – the turnbacks appear to be green, but the text suggest the facings are red.

(I know a lot i conjecture)

von Winterfeldt13 Oct 2019 12:28 p.m. PST

Dawson is pretty clear on this on pages 278 and 279 and I agree with him, so red lining of coat tails and consequently red turn backs, chamois piping.

Sir Able Brush13 Oct 2019 1:01 p.m. PST

thank you von winterfeldt – I'll go for that – then decide whether chamois cuffs and collar or green piped chamois, – the 1813 images in Dawson suggest chamois.

SHaT198413 Oct 2019 3:29 p.m. PST

'Real turnbacks' are just that- the inside of the habit rolled over to expose the inner lining. 99% of the time it was white, but the Guard, red (and a very bright scarlet one at at that)!

Piping covered the sewing seam betwixt the two pieces of cloth, out and inner, which, when 'turned' became a more visible line along that exposed edge.

False turnbacks, that is a piece of separate cloth (of contrasting colours) stitched directly on top of the outer cloth became the cheaper option when the 'kinski' style jacket was introduced, either in style or by reguation.
Regards d

Sir Able Brush14 Oct 2019 1:12 a.m. PST

ah – so maybe thats the things – they wear the kinski jacket, and illustrations appear to show false turnbacks of green with lin ings of red

von Winterfeldt14 Oct 2019 5:16 a.m. PST

It is not a Kinski jacket as such but more like Bardin, but those turnbacks are red – no red pipings of green lining, but red turnback lining piped chamois, Dawson is quite good by providing the information, please re read those above mentioned pages.

Sir Able Brush14 Oct 2019 7:19 a.m. PST

Sorry – you are right and I've read it much more carefully now.

"The only scarlet cloth was for the tail facings and linings… the facing of the tails were clearly scarlet milled serge with chamois piping. The regiment's archive confirms chamois collar and cuffs. "

It is very clear. Thanks again.

other things his research shows:

Any lace to the drummers habit was either gold or yellow.
drum sling had a grenade plate and picquer two ros of stitching of the Old Guard
No yellow tassels on the gaiters – possibly lace.
black gaiters (including about half with copper buttons)
bonnets de police in green fabric (pokalem – no tassels)
Capotes (overcoat) – are in gris-beige cloth.
Giberne (for carrying ammo) had an eagle in copper – but also had a cover.
Sapeurs wore bearskins with white chords and scarlet plumes. No decoration on their crossbelts apparently, but a medusa's head on their sabre belt.

SHaT198415 Oct 2019 3:34 p.m. PST

Well, not to drag everyone down, but the crowing about these 'new books' overlooks a whole lotta assumptions being made.

Just one example out of many contentious issues I read there "Furthermore, cap cords for sergeants were not used by the Imperial Guard.".

Baloney! To suggest that a standard feature of uniform, worn by everyone of the officers and rank and file, would not be worn by sergeants is ridiculous. Stating as such because you don't see it in clothing 'Tarif' or equipment manufacture is misleading.

NCO's at all levels were frequently transferred between units. Senior regiments would supply them, and thus they turned up in their original regimental attire. Their hatwear (of whatever style) were always mixed gold and primary colour of regiment- red for Grenadiers, green for Chasseurs.
Etat-Major M.deLogis Chef also wore multiple gold fringes on epaulettes over the primary colour, where 'simple' company sergeants wore one.

Brass emblems and badges for Sapeurs and musicians were most probably available, not needed to be purchased separately, from the 'depot' of the senior regiment who acquired these things habitually for service and repair. The Guard did not go without, even given the financial restraints of the times.
davew

von Winterfeldt15 Oct 2019 10:11 p.m. PST

that doesn't matter at all regarding the turnback issue about the Flanqueurs grenadiers – which are red.

otherwise quotes would be welcome so I can check those "misleading" statements, as I wrote in another thread Dawson is not flawless but he provides plenty of interesting information not to be found elsewhere other than the archives.

Dave Jackson Supporting Member of TMP24 Oct 2019 1:08 p.m. PST

Sir Able Brush…..nothing more I can add…….all that has been said is what I found.

Sir Able Brush24 Oct 2019 2:44 p.m. PST

Thanks Dave – the whole thread was a great help, thanks all

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