"B-17 Crashes" Topic
16 Posts
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Editor in Chief Bill | 02 Oct 2019 10:34 a.m. PST |
Several fatalities and multiple injuries were reported after a World War II-era bomber crashed Wednesday while attempting to land at Connecticut's largest airport, officials said… link |
Choctaw | 02 Oct 2019 10:52 a.m. PST |
This is horrible. RIP for those who perished and prayers for the injured. |
Herkybird | 02 Oct 2019 11:03 a.m. PST |
I am very sad about this too, my thoughts and prayers are with all involved. |
14Bore | 02 Oct 2019 12:09 p.m. PST |
Heard about this on the way home, sad about losing lives on a ride that they looked forward to |
ScottWashburn | 02 Oct 2019 12:36 p.m. PST |
Five dead. This is terrible. :( |
Tgerritsen | 02 Oct 2019 1:44 p.m. PST |
That is awful. One less of these old beauties flying and thirteen lives directly affected, five dead. How terrible. |
Mark 1 | 02 Oct 2019 3:46 p.m. PST |
I have flown in that very plane. I have met several of the aircrew and tour organizers. I have seen the light in the eyes of the old veterans that attend almost every local visit they do on their tour -- they always organize and invite local veterans to come out and be part of the display with the planes, to talk about their experiences. The Collins Foundation really has taken a "living history" approach to educating the public. I am grieved for the loss of life, and the hardships of the survivors, both the injured and the emotionally injured. I also fear that it will be harder for the foundation to continue their good work in the future. I hope not. But … -Mark (aka: Mk 1) |
79thPA | 02 Oct 2019 3:52 p.m. PST |
This is one of my concerns when I think about ponying up for a ride in one of these old war birds. |
Wolfhag | 02 Oct 2019 7:09 p.m. PST |
When the Collings planes came into town my son and I helped the ground crews and I did advance PR work. I rode on the B-24 three times and my son on the B-17. I've always been a little apprehensive about riding on an old plane. Our skydiving club had an old Stinson V-77. On one jump before we got to the drop zone the engine quit and the plane went down. We all bailed out and were just high enough to open up. Fortunately, the pilot was able to dead stick into a field. I only made one more jump after that. If those old planes keep flying they will all eventually wind up like the B-17. From my experience with the Collings Foundation they attempted to keep the planes in tip-top condition and flew with a full time mechanic and ground crew. I used to help with the pre-flight checks and had downloaded the B-24 manual and they followed it closely in addition to other checks. They would not let a non-licensed civilian in the co-pilot seat which some other companies would do to raise money. Most of the passengers in the B-17 were in the mid-section / waist guns. The B-24 had the waist positions open and you can easily jump out. The B-17 had a waist positions had a plexiglass covering that may have been hard to escape from. The escape hatch for the tail gunner is normally blocked with equipment. The only place to escape would have been from the door on the starboard side which seems to be where the impact was. No one occupies the tail gun position on those flights. Hopefully new information will shed light on the causes and the final approach. I hope none of the crew were friends I knew. RIP Wolfhag |
Mark 1 | 02 Oct 2019 8:36 p.m. PST |
Wolf: I know one of the fellows who has helped set up the Livermore visits on the Wings of Freedom tour for many years. I rode in this same bird, the B-17 "Nine o' Nine" many years ago. I bought a ride as a gift to my brother, as well. More recently (OK, maybe 8 years ago, so not entirely recent) I also took a ride in the B-24. The B-24 had the waist positions open and you can easily jump out. The B-17 had a waist positions had a plexiglass covering that may have been hard to escape from. Presuming you are describing how one would escape in the event of an emergency. But I must admit that I was quite surprised at how easy it would have been to lose a passenger in flight, either through accidental or deliberate steps. Some aspects of the pre-flight safety briefings made a lasting impression in my mind. Like the simple concept of hatches being sprung closed, rather than latched. In other words, if you wanted to get out of the plane fast, you just stepped onto the hatch and OUT you went! Very handy if bailing out of a burning plane. Not so much when you are a short-attention-span civvie walking around without paying too much attention as the plane is cruising around the countryside. The same was true of the bomb bay doors (in the B-17, not the B-24). If you needed OUT, you just hop onto the doors and POP out you go! Very useful again for baling out in an emergency. Also very good if a bomb came loose and fell off the rack (don't want it rolling around inside the belly of the plane now, do you?). But the catwalk between the bomb racks was about 5 inches wide. Walking that path, from the flight engineer's position (where I started the flight) to the waist positions (good views and more room), knowing that I could POP out if I made a wrong step, while the plane went bumpity-bump through the sky 4K feet above a 10 lane freeway … oh some fond memories! This is one of my concerns when I think about ponying up for a ride in one of these old war birds. I've done more dangerous things just to paint the ceiling or fix the stove, and gathered far fewer insights and memories for it. Helps to have jumped out of perfectly good aircraft, though. Puts much into perspective. Our skydiving club had an old Stinson V-77. On one jump before we got to the drop zone the engine quit and the plane went down. We all bailed out and were just high enough to open up. Yikes! Were you advanced enough to all be set up with rip cords? I'm imagining some poor novice frantically pulling at 15 feet of static cord all the way down… I recall on my first jump, when the pilot gave us the safety lecture before turning onto the runway (you know, the whole "In the event of a sudden change in cabin pressure, oxygen masks will automatically …." bit on airlines? Well even small planes the pilots, if they are commercial vs. private aircraft, are supposed to do something similar). He said something like: "Ain't no seatbelts, so please stay away from the open door. Keep your left hand over your emergency cord. If you accidentally pop your 'chute, GET OUT NOW or when the wind catches the 'chute your body will rip a hole in the side of the plane. Oh, and if we have engine trouble everyone stays with the plane until I tell you we're high enough." It was quite a different lecture. -Mark (aka: Mk 1) |
Wolfhag | 03 Oct 2019 5:15 a.m. PST |
Mark, IIRC we were over the jump site and climbing to 3,000 to let me off static line and then go to 10,000 to let out the other three jumpers. We were at about 2,500 when the engine stuttered and stopped. Normally I'd crawl out the door, stand on the landing gear and hold onto the wing strut during the approach to jump but this time the jump master told me to go out the door. My previous jump I got caught in a thermal and went up 200 feet before coming down. As I was gathering up my chute the other club plane came over and it looked like they threw out a wind dummy which landed a few hundred yards away from me. Unfortunately, it was not a dummy but one of their jumpers. The jump master had forgotten to undo the bungee cords that pull the covers off the pilot chute and they were in the storage position to keep it closed. The girl must have panicked as she didn't pull her reserve (T-10 modified). Another club did have a jumper accidently deploy his reserve while in the plane. He got yanked out of the plane collapsing about 2 feet of the fuselage by the door and ripped off the port horizontal stabilizer. He got tangled in the lines but landed and lived as did the plane. The last time I went skydiving on the way to the field I got this funny feeling I should not jump. When it was my turn I balked and everyone made fun of me. The guy who took the chute in my place had a Mae West malfunction, deployed his reserve which did not inflate (was not falling fast enough) and dangled down around his feet. Fortunately he landed in a plowed up field and was OK. Yes, I don't sky dive anymore. I took up Rugby instead. Wolfhag |
DeRuyter | 03 Oct 2019 10:34 a.m. PST |
More information on the accident. They had a problem with the #4 engine and the tower asked if they wanted immediate landing clearance. The aircraft was on final approach to a runway next to the de-icing equipment. Somehow the aircraft veered over and stuck the de-icing equipment bursting into flames. Clear weather and a very experienced crew. |
Lion in the Stars | 03 Oct 2019 12:01 p.m. PST |
If those old planes keep flying they will all eventually wind up like the B-17. ? What, dying in a random event? Not sure what caused a problem with #4 engine, but it's better to have those old birds flying than fading away on the ground. The other sound of freedom (Merlin engines in full cry is still my first choice) is the drone of B17s in flight. Nothing else sounds like that! (for those that haven't heard it, that drone is 200hz, roughly the G# below middle C) My guess on the engine is an issue with one or more of the bottom cylinders. They tend to load up with oil and can run really hot as a result. Cropdusters running radial engines tend to replace their lower cylinders about once a week(!). There will be a huge investigation into this, but flying with one engine out is never easy. Your ability to turn is messed up, and the bird is constantly trying to turn into the dead engine due to imbalanced thrust. A sudden gust of wind right before touchdown could have easily caused this accident. |
chironex | 04 Oct 2019 7:53 a.m. PST |
YouTube link ATC of the incident. Listener discretion is advised. If you listen to some of the other videos from that creator, you will find, as Lion observed, not much difference between flying an old plane and a new one, given the string of incidents involving light aircraft with all manner of system failures from dead engines to landing gear falling off, through the latest airliners losing engines, decompressing, losing radios, striking objects, and even the captain dropping dead at the controls, up to ATC losing power, suffering medical emergencies and even having to abandon the tower due to a fire alarm. If the authorities concerned have cleared the aircraft to fly it is no more dangerous being a Bellanca J-300 than an Airbus A220.
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TW200abc | 05 Oct 2019 8:32 a.m. PST |
I toured through the Nine-Oh-Nine about three years ago when it visited Port Angeles, Wa. Very sad news. My condolences to the family and friends of those lost. |
Mark 1 | 09 Oct 2019 7:46 p.m. PST |
Wolf: First time I jumped with a 'chute I had packed myself … I made a good departure from the plane from a seated position in the door (didn't climb out on the wheel on this plane, but did on another plane I jumped from). I was still on a static line, so I hadn't even completed shouting "THREE THOUSAND" in my count, in my spread eagle position, when I got swung around by the 'chute deployment. OK, all good. Next step -- inspect the 'chute for a cord-over (a Mae West). But … BUMP … I can't tip my head back. Bump … I really can't get my head back to look at the 'chute. Reach up behind my head with both hands and find a huge frikkin' knot in the 'chute cords. A KNOT IN THE CORDS!?! OMG Imma gonna die! They didn't train us what to do if we couldn't inspect our 'chute, only what to do if we didn't like what we saw when we did. So with exactly no training to call upon, I did what any reasonable late-adolescent male would do -- I applied brute strength. I grabbed the cords in each hand as they went into the big old knot, and I pulled them apart with all of my might. Well, turns out it wasn't a knot. The cord was doubled and tripled up, kinked, because it was twisted. And when I grabbed the cords from each shoulder and pulled them apart… San Francisco – Sacramento – SanFrancisco -Sacramento-Sanfranciscosacramento … I spun like an upside-down top. I spun so fast my legs went out horizontal from the centrifugal force. But I still couldn't put my head back for the kinked line, so my chin was pressed hard to my chest. I must have looked like a helicopter blade under that 'chute. As the cord untangled (and my spinning accelerated) I got lower from the 'chute, and felt a distinct plop of a drop for each kink that came out of the line. There were several. Finally, I could tell by my hands on the lines flying wide apart and my head was released from the full nelson (with the last plop) that the cords were untangled. However, the process didn't end there, because I was spinning so fast, with so much momentum, that I kept right on spinning and wound the cords up again the other way. And I could feel each bump as the cords kinked up (and I got closer to the 'chute, and my head got pushed forward again), until the spinning finally slowed, and stopped. Then I started unwinding again. I must have done 4 or 5 unwind/rewinds before I finally stopped spinning. My head didn't stop spinning for about 20 minutes, but I was supposed to fall down on landing anyways so that was OK. I think I did 2 more jumps after that, and then I too gave it up. Safer to play on the railroad tracks with your earbuds in listening to Metallica, I think. -Mark (aka: Mk 1) |
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