"Mortars in 1944 Soviet Motorcycle Battalion" Topic

I found this image of the 1944 Soviet independent motorcycle reconnaissance battalion and it seems to show each platoon had a mortar (миномет.), as you can see on the left side of the image.

Is this the old 50mm mortar? Did they still use these on the platoon level in 1944? Or is it possibly the 82mm mortar?

The research I have suggests 4x 82mm mortars (mounted in sidecars) should be on this diagram (note that they are included in the numerical breakdown in the bottom right, while 50mm mortars are not). If these platoon mortars were 82mm, the force organization chart above would imply that there are six such mortars included, which is two too many, but I don't see any (other) mortar in that force organization chart…

50 mm mortar was still in use in Soviet infantry units in 1944, though by that time they were usually grouped as a small unit on the company level, rather than split individually over the platoons. However, in case of a motorcycle unit, where the platoons might be expected to operate more independently in a reconnaissance role, splitting them over the individual platoons might be sensible.

Assigning individual 82 mm mortars permanently to motorcycle platoons does not sound likely – in Soviet formations these are very consistently organised into a battalion level support unit of their own.

That is really surprising to hear that 50mm mortars were still in use! Do you happen to know how they were employed?

I agree 82mm mortars in the infantry platoon seems highly unlikely, but I don't see another candidate for where they would fit on that force org diagram! Where should they go on the diagram?

I agree 82mm mortars in the infantry platoon seems highly unlikely, but I don't see another candidate for where they would fit on that force org diagram! Where should they go on the diagram?

There is a box on the diagram labled: моточнк or perhaps мотоцнк. I can not come up with a useful translation for either of these. Does anyone recognize these as abbreviations of some sort?

As that box has no detail below it, it is one candidate for any missing bits from the table of equipment. 4 mortars do not make sense in the platoon charts. No way to get to 4.

And tactically they do not make too much sense in the platoons either. A motorcycle/sidecar combo can carry a 50mm mortar, crew of 2, and a usable quantity of ammo for a short action. I expect you would need 2 or 3 combos for an 82mm mortar, crew and a useful amount of ammo.

Just my thoughts. Not much in the way of conclusions.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

And tactically they do not make too much sense in the platoons either. A motorcycle/sidecar combo can carry a 50mm mortar, crew of 2, and a usable quantity of ammo for a short action. I expect you would need 2 or 3 combos for an 82mm mortar, crew and a useful amount of ammo.

Agreed.

A 50mm RM-38/RM-41 is light enough to be a single infantryman's weapon (ok, ~12kg), while an 82-BM-41 is nearly the weight of an infantryman (56kg). Not counting any ammunition!

Ah that is мотоцик (short for мотоцикл, or motorcycle unit). The и ("i") are written a bit like a н ("n") on that sheet, which makes translation somewhat confusing.

As for the 82mm mortar, it was built into the bike's sidecar. Not sure what vehicle transported the ammunition, but I would guess that it would be a second motorcycle combination. Mortar crews appear to be 4-man (as in the last picture).

Correct. They had 82 mm mortars (line 9 of the first box – "82 mm mortars – 4 pcs."
In the same box you have tanks, APCs and 57 mm guns.

Yep, I just cannot figure out where they heck they go on the actual diagram. I went ahead and did a translation of all the text… I'm going crazy trying to figure this out! My best guess is that they are part of the command platoon and are simply not listed, which seems unusual for such a valuable piece of equipment. Again, note that there are no 50mm mortars described in the battalion's equipment list… A literal interpretation of this diagram would be that the 82mm mortars are attached directly to the motorcycle recon platoons!

Click HERE for a larger version of this image.

It is probably a typo/maths error in the summary box. As noted above, six M/C Pls should mena six 82-mm mortars rather than four. 18 DP LMGs looks in line with one per M/C Squad.

It is unusual to see 82-mm mortars decentralised out to Platoons. I haven't seen any late war Shtat for Red Army mot or mech units I'm afraid to compare it against.

Gary

Forgot to say, thanks for the pictures of the 82-mm motorcycle mortar, they aren't something I'd seen before.

That is really surprising to hear that 50mm mortars were still in use! Do you happen to know how they were employed?

According to Zaloga, the 1943-44 rifle company TOE includes a tiny mortar platoon (1 officer and 6 other ranks, with two 50 mm mortars) as a support asset at the company level, presumably to be assigned as the company commander saw fit.

That is for full-strenght units, though. Sample TOEs for under-strenght units given by Zaloga seem to often do away with the 50 mm mortar, so presumably it was not considered particularly crucial piece of equipment.

Gary may be able to provide further comments on the topic, having recently put together his own documentation on the subject (which I am still to go through properly).

PS: thanks for the pictures of those mortar/sidecar combinations, pretty clever looking design for getting the pieces quickly into action.

@Achtung Minen: Wow, those pictures are great!

I suppose the interesting question becomes "does anyone make those Mortarcycles in 15mm?"

Wouldnt be too hard to make them! I'll let you know how it turns out.

I don't recall seeing the 50-mm mortar in any of the summaries for Tank and Mechanised units I've run across. I can't recall if I posted the below on TMP but I did on a related thread on Axis History Forum;

Shtat 010/353 dated 9th April 1942

17 officers
15 warrant and political officers
72 sergeants
183 other ranks

10 armoured vehicles, described as Áðåí, so Bren or Universal carriers, each with a Bren gun and an anti-tank rifle (also identified as a Bren rather than a Boys).
12 DP LMGs
10 POKC flamethrowers
44 SMGs

1 car
8 1.5-ton trucks
1 2.5-ton truck
1 ambulance
1 petrol truck (?)
1 workshop truck
1 kitchen
66 motorcycle combinations
9 solo motorcycles

Battalion HQ – 11 officers, 2 men
HQ Platoon – 11 men, 1 radio truck, 3 solo m/c and 5 combinations
Flamethrower Platoon – 1 officer, 21 men, 11 combinations, 10 flamethrowers (two Squads each of 10 men and 5 FT)

Two Motorcycle Companies, 5 officers, 66 men each;
Company HQ – 3 officers, 8 men; 4 combinations, 1 solo m/c
Two Platoons, each ;
HQ – officer, messenger, motorcyclist; 1 combination, 1 solo m/c
Three Squads, each – Sgt (SMG), Jnr Sgt (LMG), Asst gunner (rifle), 3 riflemen (1 SMG, 2 rifles), 3 motorcyclists (rifles); 3 motorcycle combinations

Carrier Company, 6 officers, 55 men
HQ – 3 officers, 4 men; 1 carrier
Three Platoons, each;
1 officer, 2 Snr Sgts, 3 Sgts (drivers), 6 Cpls (machine gunners), 3 Jnr Sgts and 3 Cpls (anti-tank rifle gunners); 3 carriers, 3 Bren guns and 3 Boys atk rifles

Services – 4 officers, 34 men; 2 m/c combinations, 1 car, 1 workshop truck, 1 kitchen, 1 ambulance, 8 1.5-ton trucks, 1 2.5-ton truck

It remains the only primary info I've got for Red Army M/C units, which obviously underwent numerous changes as the war progressed. No mortars of any type in this set up so no help for 010/487. I've seen a few of schemes for M/C Bns/Regts, but the detail is so slight it's ridiculous. One does show a different M/C Regt Shtat (010/433, no idea on the date) with no breakdown of the Rifle Coys at all. It does include a separate Mortar Coy with 12 82-mm tubes in three Pls of four apiece.

The series the diagram in the original post is taken from appears to have been compiled by a local command. I still wouldn't rule out the possibility it's a typo in the summary box. They were illustrative only I think.

Gary

1 petrol truck (?)

I'm assuming that is a POL tanker truck for refueling, as that lines up with the early German KSTNs for support/supply vehicles.

Gary, I think you're right—no 50mm light mortar. Its absence (in comparison to, say, regular infantry companies) actually goes part of the way to justifying the inclusion of the two 84mm medium mortars in the 010/487 motorcycle company.

Flamethrower Platoon – 1 officer, 21 men, 11 combinations, 10 flamethrowers (two Squads each of 10 men and 5 FT)

Motorcycle flamethrower platoon sounds a bit scary, though I presume those flamethrowers were not intended to be fired from the sidecars while on the move!

I don't recall seeing the 50-mm mortar in any of the summaries for Tank and Mechanised units I've run across.

According to the TOEs in Zaloga's Companion to the Red Army, the motorised rifle units in 1941 had 50 mm mortars, though these seem to disappear in the later TOEs.

His section on motorcycle units is a bit spartan, though it mentions that the motorcycle rifle companies in 1941 motorcycle regiment (equivalent to a reinforced battalion really) were supported by a small motorcycle mortar company of 60 men armed with 18 of 50 mm mortars.

"Motorcycle flamethrower platoon sounds a bit scary, though I presume those flamethrowers were not intended to be fired from the sidecars while on the move!"

Now that sounds like a proper unit for wargamers:)

Motorcycle flamethrower platoon sounds a bit scary, though I presume those flamethrowers were not intended to be fired from the sidecars while on the move!

"Hold my vodka and watch this!"

Really interesting information in this thread so far. Great stuff, guys!

A question for clarification, if I may …

10 POKC flamethrowers

May I conclude that this designation was not transliterated from the Cyrillic lettering?

РОКС (Cyrillic) = ROKS (Roman)

I know what a ROKS flamethrower is. ROKS-2 and -3 were common Red Army models that were made to resemble a normal rifleman's kit, with the fuel and pressure tanks wrapped together to look like a knapsack on the back, and the projector with a wooden stock to resemble a Mosin rifle.

But if there is an actual POKC model (ПОКЦ in Cyrillic?) I have some research to do, 'cause I don't know that one.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

I know what a ROKS flamethrower is. ROKS-2 and -3 were common Red Army models that were made to resemble a normal rifleman's kit, with the fuel and pressure tanks wrapped together to look like a knapsack on the back, and the projector with a wooden stock to resemble a Mosin rifle.

Well that lends a whole new meaning to getting your ROKS off! :-)

"Hold my vodka and watch this!"

Depending on the proof of the vodka, it might BE the ammo for the ROKS!

"May I conclude that this designation was not transliterated from the Cyrillic lettering?

ÐÎÊÑ (Cyrillic) = ROKS (Roman)"

Yes, it is the original Cyrillic. I can't paste it into TMP but the full term I think translates as 'backpack flamethrower'.

There's no indication of usage but I suspect by this time any adherence to Health & Safety best practice was long gone…

Gary

Here's another question… the two armoured personnel carrier platoons had 11 M3 scout cars between them. Presumably, each platoon was made up of three sections of scouts entirely armed with SMGs (there would have been no LMGs or rifles left in the equipment table for them to use after the motorcycle companies had been assigned theirs).

So the question is, how were the M3 scout cars distributed?

Is it safe to assume the each platoon had 5 APCs, with the remaining APC going to some HQ section? Wikipedia says that the M3 Scout Car was designed to have 6 passengers, which would mean five cars could carry 30 scouts (a good size for a platoon). Or was their some other distribution of M3 Scout Cars? Note that some of the photographic evidence seems to show 7, 8 or even 9 passengers riding in the back of Soviet lend-lease M3 Scout Cars.

I have also seen this picture (below) that show the ZiS-2 57mm ATG being towed by M3 Scout Cars… if the Anti-Tank Battery received four of the eleven vehicles, that means there are only 7 left for the APC platoons (perhaps three M3 Scout Cars per platoon with the remaining M3 Scout Car given to the armoured recon company's HQ section).

In the Recce Coy of the Mech Bde (010/377 of March 1942) the armoured vehicles were in two Platoons each of five;

Pl cmdr (Lt)
4 car cmdrs (Snr Sgt)
5 drivers (Sgt)
10 machine gunners (Jnr Sgt)
5 atk rifle gunners (Jnr Sgt)
5 asst atk rifle gunners (L-Cpl)
5 armoured vehicles

The dismount element was an SMG Pl in trucks;

Pl cmdr (Lt)
Pl Sgt (Snr Sgt)
3 Squad leaders (Sgt)
3 Deputy Sqd ldrs (Jnr Sgt)
33 submachine gunners (all L-Cpls)
3 drivers (Ptes)
3 1.5-ton trucks

All armed with an SMG

The Armd Car Pl was;

Pl cmdr (Lt)
4 car cmdrs (Snr Sgt)
5 gunners (Jnr Sgt)
5 drivers (Jnr Sgt)
5 armd cars

I appreciate that's not the same unit structure you're looking at, but it does bear some similarities.

Gary

Thanks Gary, very interesting stuff again! To be honest, the idea that some of the 11 M3 Scout Cars served in the Anti-Tank Battery is also problematic, given that the 57mm guns were replaced in some instances with SU-57 self-propelled gun carriage (which would leave the battery's M3 cars with nothing to do). It is also hard to imagine that a 6-seater M3 scout car would be officially assigned to carry more than 6 passengers, even given the austerity that the Red Army faced throughout the war with regards to transport vehicles.

Nevertheless, the picture above showing an M3 towing a ZiS-2 is intriguing… I wonder if more pictures like this could be found? It's not clear if it was a one-off unusual event or something that was typical or even to regulation…

For fun, here are some more pictures of M3 Scout Cars in Soviet service: link

Just found this, which might be of interest: link

That article mentions the following:

Perhaps their only drawback that the Soviet soldiers highlighted in their reports on the combat use of vehicles was an unreliable towing device, especially when towing 76.2 mm ZIS-3 divisional cannons and a drop in dynamic performance when towing such an artillery system.

This indicates both that the M3 were used as gun tractors and also that they were unpopular in that role… Of course the ZiS-3 is not the ZiS-2 so it is no explicit indication that M3 Scout Cars were assigned to tow ZiS-2…

The Russian Wikipedia article on the ZiS-2 however only mentions that the 57mm ATG was towed by GAZ-type trucks, the ZiS-5 and (early on) Komsomolets, as well as Dodge WC-51 trucks and the Studebaker "deuce and a half" truck, with no mention of the M3A1 (although to be fair, the Russian article on the ZiS-3 also fails to mention the M3 Scout Car).

I think at the end of the day, however, since the M3A1's are called "armored personnel carriers" on the force organization equipment table above, I have to assume that they weren't used as gun tractors (or else they would probably have been identified as such in the equipment table).

Not to resurrect a dead thread, but I noticed today that Battle Order had put out a video about Soviet motorcycle troops in WW2: youtu.be/AnfPlgajZc0

About the six-minute mark, he describes a post-1943 motorcycle battalion shtat and about 6:45, he claims the motorcycle-mounted 82mm mortars were issued two to a company. While his TO&Es are for slightly different shtats, this nevertheless matches my translation of the TO&E above and suggests the "mortar section" listed under the motorcycle platoon was merely to show two mortars being attached to the company (rather than to each platoon). That makes sense to me so I'll consider that question resolved.