"Italy: good, bad or indifferent?" Topic

Did the Germans' alliance with Italy help, hurt, or make no difference to Germany in WW II?

Overall, hurt

Got them into theatres they didn't need to be in, tied up troops they didn't have – per capita, the Italian theatre tied up more German troops than the Eastern Front!

It hurt them. Had to bolster them too much & then take over when they surrendered.

Try playing AHGCs Third Reich as Germany without Italy. Yes, Mussolinis legions had some problems but they still had a large navy and airforce, a fairly modern economy and were able to keep the British very occupied indeed in the Mediterranean.

Hurt. The Germans were always having to bale out the Italians. It affected the Barbarossa time table. It gave the allies an avenue to invade mainland Europe. The fighting in Italy forced the Germans to commit considerable resources that could have been better used on other fronts.

Good point Martin … +1

Yes, based on their "competence" in many cases. They were sometimes more trouble than they were worth to the Reich. Regardless they fought bravely in many cases, and took large losses overall as well. IIRC, they took more losses on the Eastern front than in North Africa.

Hurt.

My mama taught me if you don't have anything nice to say about somebody, say nothing.

,………………………

We should probably play through all of scenarios:

Historical: Italy as an Axis power
Italy neutral
Italy occupied by Germany in, say, 1938 (maybe as an extension of the Anschluss)
Italy as an Allied power

It's really hard for Germany to win WW2. They can make life hell for tens if not hundreds of millions of people, but I'm not sure they can ever defeat the USSR, regardless of Italy or when they start the war.

Possibly the only scenario for a German victory is if they develop atomic weapons early. Then it's really Götterdämmerung.

We should probably play through all of scenarios:

Historical: Italy as an Axis power
Italy neutral
Italy occupied by Germany in, say, 1938 (maybe as an extension of the Anschluss)
Italy as an Allied power

It's really hard for Germany to win WW2. They can make life hell for tens if not hundreds of millions of people, but I'm not sure they can ever defeat the USSR, regardless of Italy or when they start the war.

Possibly the only scenario for a German victory is if they develop atomic weapons early. Then it's really Gotterdammerung.

A lot of "what if's" in war. Compared to the Russian front, everywhere else is on a smaller scale. I don't think Italy was a game changer one way or another.

Recall something about never get involved in a land war is Asia.

In 1939, would Germany prefer an ally bordering Austria or an enemy?

As far as German foreign policy should be considered, you can't look at what happened beyond that date – as hindsight always changes things.

A better question might be, if Germany had not allied to Italy, would WW2 have happened?

You have to remember the politics of the period. The extreme right in one country encouraged the bravado of the extreme right in another. If Mussolini had seen greener pastures and allied with the 'politically liberal' countries, would Hitler have felt so emboldened.

Many people, at the time, thought that world politics would shift to one of the extremes, possibly as a result of war. Today, communism and fascism are largely dirty words (rightly, IMHO) but, the world looked very different in the 30s – where all the options, of world domination by liberal, fascist, communist politics looked equally likely.

I don't see Germany lasting as long as they did without Italy's navy and air force.

I'm sure that helped to a point.

I can't not anymore…

OK, lets try.

First, lets embrace the reality that once Germany started running amok, there was less chance of keeping Mussolini on the sidelines than getting certain current world leaders to stop tweeting.

That being said, let's deconstruct.

If Italy had remained neutral, there would have been no need for the Brits to do their recon in force that resulted in a rout of the Italian army in North Africa.

Without which there would have been no need to supply and reinforce North Africa through the teeth of Maltese resistance,

and no DAK,

which would have avoided any need for an ineffective Axis air effort to suppress Malta,

nor, an ineffective Italian naval effort to deny access to the central med to the Brits. The UBoats contributed far more than the Italian surface fleet. Ark Royal, Barham, and they're just the top of the pile.

Nor any need for the Italian air force to spectacularly fail to menace British naval opns in the Med.

If the Italians had stayed neutral, the med becomes a non-issue, apart from Brits efforts against the (presumably) semi-neutral Vichy French coast, and French North Africa.

A Neutral Italy doesn't strike Greece from Albania. Hence no need to involve Yugoslavia, nor Bulgaria.

No need to attack Crete, to which the Italian navy ultimately committed, what? A handful of escort destroyers.

Southern Europe becomes a bastion of neutrality against which even Churchill cant cobble together an excuse to intervene.

There are no Italian troops to help occupy Yugoslavia, but wait, there's no need to occupy Yugoslavia. There are no troops to help in Russia, but Barbarossa goes off on schedule, sparing Germany the loss of PRICELESS weeks.

Italy does not require German troops to assist in its' defense, nor become an occupying army to guard and protect against an Allied invasion in 1943.

Apart from a brief fling as part of the Battle of Britain, an occupation force in Yugoslavia and Greece, and as Auxilla in Russia, the only places the Italian military made any kind of contribution was in the Med and Balkans, which would have been better for Germany left as neutrals.

An aggressive Italy might seem, on its' face, as a good idea for Germany, but in reality Italy was Germany's well meaning but daft brother in law, who keeps trying to help, but somehow always manages to find a way to make things worse.

Sorry, HURT.

As I said … They were sometimes more trouble than they were worth to the Reich.

I dunno, gave the British someone to beat up on before the main event with Rommel.

Good point… The UK had not done too well until they took on the Italians in the early days of the War in NA. E.g. Beda Fomm … Regardless many on all sides fought very bravely and many paid the price.