Garde de Paris | 15 Aug 2019 6:02 a.m. PST |
link Great scholar Victor Davis Hanson. GdeP Sorry! It did not appear in the blog, so I tried again. Does not allow me to cross-post to Sea and Air. GdeP again. |
jekinder6 | 15 Aug 2019 6:07 a.m. PST |
|
PaulB | 15 Aug 2019 6:27 a.m. PST |
I wonder why he writes of Hitler's invasion of Poland but makes no mention of Stalin's? |
SBminisguy | 15 Aug 2019 6:55 a.m. PST |
I see much sarc here, what's your point? He points to the molatov-ribbentrop pact as presaging the beginning of the wat a week later, and points out how much of a miscalculation on Stalin's part it was. |
Lee494 | 15 Aug 2019 9:30 a.m. PST |
WWII began the day the Armistice for WWI eas signed. It just took a few years for everyone to realize it. You all know I'm out there with some of my ideas but a hundred years from I'll believe historians will call all the wars from 1914 thru the fall of the USSR the 75 years war. WWI, II and the Cold War with its Police Actions was one long war with short interludes of peace. Cheers! |
pzivh43 | 15 Aug 2019 10:17 a.m. PST |
Peace: That short period between the shooting when everyone pauses to reload! |
thomalley | 15 Aug 2019 10:48 a.m. PST |
The Japaneses also don't talk of WWII, because of their involvement iin multiple other periods and theaters. |
Mobius | 15 Aug 2019 11:14 a.m. PST |
At one point or another Russia signed pacts with every other major participant.
I wonder why he writes of Hitler's invasion of Poland but makes no mention of Stalin's? According to the French it was only cause for France to declare war on Germany, but nobody else. |
Herkybird | 15 Aug 2019 11:36 a.m. PST |
I am with those like Marshal Foch, who see WW1 and 2 as the Great European Civil War, to quote: "This is not peace. It is an armistice for 20 years" A remarkably accurate guess! |
Mark 1 | 15 Aug 2019 1:28 p.m. PST |
I am … should I say mystified? Annoyed? Dismayed? at the appropriation of clear language to push a dissociated conclusion. War did not start when someone signed a non-aggression pact. War did not start when someone signed a treaty, or a cease-fire. War started when someone attacked, fired at, launched warfare against others. World War did not start when one country began fighting with one other country. World War started when multiple countries, with interests, facilities, forces, or alliances all around the world, became involved in fighting, shooting, attacking, defending against another country or set of countries. Dinner does not start when lunch ends. Dinner does not start when I have a snack. Dinner does not start when I put pots and pans on the stove. Any of those may affect or influence dinner eventually, but dinner does not actually start until someone serves the food to the people who will be dining. World War 2 did not start when the Treaty of Versaille was signed. It did not start when the Nazi-Soviet pact was signed. It did not start when Ghandi fasted. It did not start when the USN moved the Pacific Fleet HQ to Pearl Harbor. Saying otherwise is just diluting the meaning of the term World War 2, and confusing those who don't know if/as they seek to discover and understand. -Mark (aka: Mk 1) |
Lee494 | 15 Aug 2019 3:53 p.m. PST |
So Mark, when then DID WWII start? Germany invading Poland saw only 4 countries (I'm counting the Brits as one country, don't see much chance of Aussies or Ghurkas fighting in Poland!) fighting until a few weeks later when the Russians made it 5. In Europe. The Japs had already been fighting the Chinese. So 7. So what is your definition? When Italy joined in against France? When the US finally got dragged in after Pearl Harbor? Cheers! |
Mobius | 15 Aug 2019 4:17 p.m. PST |
Yeah, what is the minimum number for a world war? Is it by countries or by total population? |
Col Durnford | 15 Aug 2019 4:21 p.m. PST |
It's not really a World War until the American get involved! Duck and cover. |
Memento Mori | 15 Aug 2019 4:54 p.m. PST |
World War Two is a generic title for an entire series of conflicts fought out in various parts of the world. You can roughly divide it into two wide areas ( Europe and Asia) that in turn can even be divided further into smaller geographic areas. Historically and practically speaking the Sino Japanese War was a totally different conflict than what we call WW2. It was simultaneous at times . The Sino Japanese war had its beginnings in 1931 with the invasion of Manchuria and Northern China can be accurately dated from July 7, 1937, to September 2, 1945.During these dates Japan also fought twice against the Russians and against the UK and USA from Dec 7 1941.These can be seen as escalations of the original conflict While Japan had a paper alliance with Germany Italy and the other Axis allies they did very little if anything to coordinate strategies. |
Korvessa | 15 Aug 2019 5:26 p.m. PST |
Finland divides the war into three wars |
Mark 1 | 15 Aug 2019 5:56 p.m. PST |
So Mark, when then DID WWII start? Germany invading Poland saw only 4 countries (I'm counting the Brits as one country, don't see much chance of Aussies or Ghurkas fighting in Poland!) fighting until a few weeks later when the Russians made it 5. I would place the start of WW2 as September 3, 1939. I could be pushed to accept September 1, but if I am stating the date, I would say September 3. By the end of the day September 3, the following countries were all in a state of war: Germany (including the now-independent nations of the then-greater Reich, which were not identified then as separate nations but which today we would identify as Austria, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia), France, the United Kingdom, major British Colonies (including India), Canada, New Zealand, Australia. The fact that Ghurkas didn't fight in Poland on September 3 doesn't influence my view. There is no discontinuity in the timeline from this point to Ghurkas fighting in Italy in 1944, or Canadians in the Ruhr in 1945, so I am less fussed about when the first Ghurka fired a rifle -- there were rifles being fired, and Ghurkas (and Canadians) were among the warring parties. Because of the continuity of the timeline I don't object strenuously to the September 1 date. Fighting started on that date, and continued and escalated until Ghurkas were in Italy and Canadians were in the Ruhr. While one could say that fighting started in China in 1937 and continued until Nagasaki glowed, I do not find the same level of continuity. The fighting between China and Japan went on for 3 years before it expanded to include any other nation as a warring party. Even then, it was more like 4 years, as the nations drawn in to the fighting in 1940 were largely the half-abandoned colonies of defeated European powers. The arrival of Japanese forces in Hanoi was more like a parade than a war. I would rather suggest that the Sino-Japanese war was subsumed by or absorbed into WW2, rather than identifying it as the start of WW2. So also with the "Winter War" between the Soviet Union and Finland. I view this as a war between two nations, that happened to take place against the backdrop of a larger worldwide conflict. The "Continuation War" (as the Finns call it), on the other hand, I would view as a part of WW2. It would not have happened if the Germans, Italians, Romanians, Hungarians, British and Russians hadn't all already been at war. (But I will suggest it is an odd part of WW2, given that the western allies never declared war against Finland). But I can easily see a rational discussion of whether Finland fought in one war, two wars, or three wars. What I have more difficulty in seeing as a rational discussion is that signing a non-aggression pact was the start of war. Or that a movie was the start of a war. Or that my mother's birthday was the start of a war. Sorry, but for it to be the start of a war, I expect that it involved starting a war. And for it to be the start of a world war, I expect that it involves multiple countries from multiple geographies around the world. Just kind of how I understand the language. -Mark (aka: Mk 1) |
Mobius | 15 Aug 2019 7:21 p.m. PST |
So then 3 three countries. The Reich with their satellites, France and their satellites and the UK with their satellites. |
Barin1 | 16 Aug 2019 3:37 a.m. PST |
Mark, Actually UK declared war against Finland on 6/12/41, Canada, Australia and New Zealand declared war on 7/12/41, and South AFrican Union – on 9th of December. It is true, that US never declared war against Finland. |
Cuprum2 | 16 Aug 2019 6:31 a.m. PST |
Is World War a coalition war? When did coalitions form? |
Ed Mohrmann | 16 Aug 2019 9:06 a.m. PST |
Let me muddy the puddle – by some definitions, then, the first World War actually started in 1754 and lasted until 1763, involved all the major European countries and most of their colonies, spanned 5 continents and split European nations into two coalitions. Not mention beginning a 250-year long struggle among the world's nations to control natural and other resources, including populations. |
WARGAMESBUFF | 16 Aug 2019 10:11 a.m. PST |
Dec 7th 1944 for me as a BRIT! |
Memento Mori | 16 Aug 2019 12:25 p.m. PST |
Ed you have a good argument that the Secven Years War was the First" World War A number of historians have claimed this as well. Although fewer countries were involved,due mainly to colonization, the geographical area covered by both sea and land warfare was larger. These were also conflicts between the two min protagonists England and France and not conflicts between proxies or allies link |
Mark 1 | 16 Aug 2019 1:06 p.m. PST |
Dec 7th 1944 for me as a BRIT! OK, I'm game. What happened on that date that defines it as the start of WW2 (for you as a BRIT!)? As I understand it, that was the date that Gen. Radescu (however it may be properly spelled) formed a new government in Romania. I believe this was the last non-communist government before Romania became an Eastern Bloc Communist Soviet puppet state. Is that the trigger for you? It's also the date that the USS Ward, that destroyer which so famously fired the first shots 3 years earlier at Pearl Harbor, was lost to a kamikaze attack in the Philippines. Is that the trigger for you? Somehow neither of those seems appropriate. Was their some specific event in or involving Britain that I should know of? What happened on that date? -Mark (aka: Mk 1) |
Dan Cyr | 16 Aug 2019 2:38 p.m. PST |
+1 Ed Plus other world wide wars that happened between 1763 and 1914. Dan |
raylev3 | 19 Aug 2019 9:48 p.m. PST |
Actually when WW2 began is an interesting questions. A Euro-centric perspective would put it when German and Russian invaded Poland. An Asian perspective could put it when Japan invaded China in 1931, especially since those two nations remained major antagonists through to 1945. The two hemispheres became linked on December 7. Up until then there was no relationship between the war in Europe and the one in Asia. Of course there are a lot of branches and sequels to consider. |
French Wargame Holidays | 19 Aug 2019 11:52 p.m. PST |
What do you mean no relationship between Europe and Asia Raylev? Russian, German and American aided the Chinese and Japanese government in the early part of the war. By the end of 41 and early 42 the colonial nations of France, Netherlands and England lost important centres of oil production and rubber had a major impact on the war effort in the west.. For me 1937 when the second Sino Japanese war commenced. |
Bill N | 20 Aug 2019 12:21 p.m. PST |
by some definitions, then, the first World War actually started in 1754 and lasted until 1763, involved all the major European countries and most of their colonies, spanned 5 continents and split European nations into two coalitions. I never understood why the Seven Years War counts as a world war, but the 80 Years War does not. Nobody counts the War of Austrian Succession or the American War of Independence as world wars either. As to when THE Second World War started I am good with 1937, with September 1, 1939 or September 3, 1939. |
raylev3 | 23 Aug 2019 10:22 p.m. PST |
What do you mean no relationship between Europe and Asia Raylev? I should have been more specific; I was referring to fighting…the fighting in Asia in the 1930s was among Asian nations, primarily between Japan and China. |