"Burgundian flags and liveries post 1477?" Topic

I'm interested in the 'Burgundian' armies between the death of Charles the Bold and the end of the 15th century.

After the Duke's death, the Burgundian territories passed to his daughter Mary. She married Maximilian (son of Emperor Frederick III), who helped defend her territories from French aggression, and after her death ruled them in the name of their son Phillip. He then had to deal with both the French and rebellions in the low countries, where he wasn't very popular.

I understand that most of Charles the Bold's army died with him at Nancy. No doubt there were Ordonnance companies left behind, but I imagine the Ordonnance system fell apart. When the French invaded the Low Countries, Maximilian fought against them with an army consisting mostly of local militia pikemen.

But I think I'm right in saying there were new Ordonnance companies organised under Maximilian and Mary. Maximilian's armies over the next decades were a mix of Flemish and other Low County militias, German and Swiss mercenaries, and 'Burgundian' Ordonnance cavalry.

Basically I'm interested in any information about this period and these armies, but specifically today I'd like to learn more about the flags and liveries of the 'Burgundians', if indeed anything is known.

1) We have plenty of wonderful examples of the flags of Charles the Bold's army, but which of these would likely to still be used after his death? I'm guessing the ones with his motto (Je Lay Emprins) would not be seen. The more generic ones with just Burgundian crosses should be fair game. Would the new Ordonnance companies carry the Burgundian ducal arms, for Duchess Mary? Was her coat of arms different to her father's? What about the seemingly complex system of flags denoting company and squadron numbers?

2) Any idea if the new Ordonnance companies would wear uniformed livery jackets? We are led to believe that the Duke's army had blue and white jackets with a red St Andrews cross. Would they be carried over onto the new companies?

3) Both before and after the Duke's death, do we have evidence of separate companies having different coloured liveries? I ask as I have a cavalry unit in green and white livery, and I'm tempted to paint a red St Andrews cross on top.

4) What about flags for the Maximilian's German infantry, which apparently were not very welcome in the Low Countries? Burgundian crosses all round, or something else?

Start with Warflag they will give you a good start
link

link

The Warflag stuff is from CtB or earlier.

How is your French? There is a book on Ordonnance companies of the Low Countries including the period after Charles. It is old; I don't know whether later research has supplanted the info. I've only scanned it, so don't know how much of what you want is in there.
link

Stow's annals link say that 'the Duke of Burgundy' had a livery of yellow and red in 1510. This may have been Margaret's own livery and/or influenced by the Spanish links. I have a feeling Philip the Handsome's guard when he went to spain had the same livery but I can't find the quote off-hand.

Diebold Schilling shows men in Maximilian's service carrying flag with an obvious Burgundian link, though I don't know whether these are ordonnance companies and the pictures are troops outside the Low Countries. link is one example though there are various others, including some with the flint and steel. Schilling has probably simplified the flags.

Max's own pictures – painted a good time after the events – show his army fighting against e.g. Liege – carrying the red saltire on a yellow field. The arms of Burgundy carried are just the simple yellow and blue diagonals with red border, sometimes impaled with the red and white of Austria.

Mary's arms were apparently the same as her father's but Philip's were rearranged with Austria added in the first quarter.

TMP link is a discussion of the army right after Charles' death. Much of the army was made up of the LC militia who had their own liveries. Some of them who were with Charles in 1474 were not wearing the ducal blue and white – some were in green for instance.
link has a lot on the militia liveries.

The post-Charles army is discussed here as part of a thread on Guinegate 1479. TMP link

Two good links in there to sources for the later Ordonnance companies however they are in French. The Burgundians started raising new companies in 1477 and by Guinegate they were strong enough to supply at least 800 lances worth of troops.

The post-Charles army is discussed here as part of a thread on Guinegate 1479.

Yes, I've read that thread and had a good look around for others on this site!

How is your French?

Non-existent! However I've been pleasantly surprised with how good the Google translate tool seems to be…. Just translating a couple of paragraphs of French from the book you linked, I got this:

The account of Louis Quarré just quoted proves that the bands of prescription were not dismissed at the death of Charles, as presumed by the president count de Neny, but it is positive that no historical document alludes, even indirectly, to the existence of gold companies from the time of the death of Charles of Burgundy, to the first years of the sixteenth century. There is no longer a payment account that concerns them.

Certainly men of arms and spears were seen in many of the battles which filled this turbulent period of our history; at the Battle of Guinegate, for example, there were eight hundred and fifty lances, say the historians of the time, but nothing proves anything, there is no reason to believe that these men-at-arms or spears have formed companies analogous to those which had existed under the last duke of Burgundy. It is presumable that these men-at-arms were those whom the vassals, the possessors of fiif, supplied to the prince's army in accordance with the prescriptions of feudal law.

That seems fairly understandable – I think I will persevere with it! Thanks alot!

So already that suggests that perhaps the post-1477 ordonnance companies weren't as well organised or as smartly attired as the earlier ones… Or at least that could be a reasonable way to interpret it for the purposes of a wargaming project.

Perhaps I shouldn't worry about livery jackets?
I have a large number of 'generic' late 15th century heavy cavalry, with flags featuring my own made-up heraldry. Perhaps all I need to do is add a couple of suitable Burgundian flags in among them, to represent the cavalry described from the above translation?

Max's own pictures – painted a good time after the events – show his army fighting against e.g. Liege – carrying the red saltire on a yellow field. The arms of Burgundy carried are just the simple yellow and blue diagonals with red border, sometimes impaled with the red and white of Austria.

Mary's arms were apparently the same as her father's but Philip's were rearranged with Austria added in the first quarter.

The red saltire on a yellow field…. I've seen such flags that also feature the Burgundian 'sparks', is that the one you mean?

The simplified Burgundian arms impaled with the Austrian red and white sounds like a very pleasing idea. Do you have a link to an image of this?

Am I right in thinking Charles the Bold's arms were used throughout his army, not just by him personally? Would it be reasonable to think that commanders of Mary's armies might be flying her arms in the same way?

link has a selection of battle images. Some have the yellow with red saltire and at least one has the 'sparks' (the Venice campaign). The Weisskunig plates have some with sparks and some without side by side, though the images are uncoloured. Likewise, some are plain saltires and others are ragged staves.

As with any old source, caution has to be used. However, with things like this, I've often decided to do them as portrayed in (more or less) contemporary pictures unless I've seen a decent source to contradict them.

The Swiss image of the Battle of Dornach shows his army with the more familiar red on white. This may be more correct for earlier in Max's reign, it could just be a variant or it could be a Swiss artist using a CtB flag as a model (since there were plenty kept as booty).

I can't remember where I've seen a flag with Burgundy and Austria half and half. It crops up at various points in Imperial heraldry. I thought it was one of Altdorfer's battle paintings, or perhaps an engraving on the Weisskunig, but I can't see it. The stripes on one of the flags looks like 'Burgundy' is mixed with something. There are some flags which seem to be just the yellow and blue diagonals – I'd have expected to see a red border so that may be a mistake by the artist.

If you can be bothered to wade through the images, the battle scenes on this version of the Triumphzug are pretty clear link

The various images on Max's army are not just 'Burgundian' companies – and may not show any! The difference between the Swiss pictures showing small (company?) flags and the Imperial images with the grand 'national' flags shows how problematic the sources are, but it does give a good bit of leeway. Even this mixture is a darn sight better than I've been able to find for the French.
Certainly sprinkling a few Burgundian crosses into what you have would create the right impression.