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"French 7th Hussars Shako Rouleau" Topic


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Comments or corrections?

Widowson24 Jun 2019 2:05 p.m. PST

I'm seeing conflicting info on this garment. Some sources show light green with yellow band around the top. Others show red. Did it change over time?

Camcleod24 Jun 2019 6:14 p.m. PST

The 'Histoire & Collections' book 9 has the 7th in green
Shako Rouleau. Men and trumpeter with no band and yellow pom-pom. Officers and a standard bearer with a yellow fillagree top band. Their sources are Rigo and Coppens and Marbot's preserved uniform.
The only other pic I found is in one of the Ridder booklets at Gallica which shows a Marechal des logis chef of the 7th with a green Shako Rouleau with a yellow band and blue disc pom-pom.

vividchris25 Jun 2019 4:56 a.m. PST

hi I think red was the elite company 1815

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP25 Jun 2019 7:24 a.m. PST

and here is a thought that has long troubled me.

The true shako Rouleau was a post Second Restoration thing? A perfect cylinder with parallel sides is what later artists reproduced (and looks great somehow).

But here is Marbot's rig plus another Hussar uniform and both show the crown is still wider than the base. I stress this is only a suspicion, with little evidence either way. Fashions were evolving, but by 1812-15, not so sure.

picture

picture


picture

picture

Widowson25 Jun 2019 7:39 a.m. PST

Marbot's shako looks slightly taller than the other, but I see what you mean. Both are tapered and maybe not as tall as the "shako rouleau" is usually pictured. I've got at least one book that shows the taller, non-tapered version. But if that existed in 1815, seems like Marbot would be wearing it. Interesting to see that Marbot had a pelisse in 1815. My guess is that they weren't made or issued for that campaign, and Marbot just had one made from his own funds.

Widowson25 Jun 2019 7:42 a.m. PST

Just one more thing – If Marbot's preserved uniform is taken as evidence of the color of the shako – green – I'd say it looks more like yellow.

Personal logo Flashman14 Supporting Member of TMP25 Jun 2019 7:53 a.m. PST

Beautiful – I like the gray trim.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP25 Jun 2019 10:03 a.m. PST

The colour of Marbot's uniform is even more puzzling than that.

The dolman and pelisse are both dark blue. I have seen it several times now and walked around the glass case trying to find a seam that preserves the original green. Cannot, but that is what UV will do. See any Model Kit box in a shop window, or the spine of your Napoleonic texts on a book shelf after some years. Green turns blue and loses the yellow. Red is lost as well. The shako has just faded from deep green.

The grey trim is great and something we do not see in uniformology. We only get white for occifers, brown for NCOs and black for troopers. See some of the preserved uniforms in Russia and then you get the most wonderful furs as trim on pelisses. Multicoloured, but murder to portray for us.

Widowson25 Jun 2019 11:42 a.m. PST

Whenever I see the green shako rouleau illustrated, it's always a lighter green than the uniform. Is this also false?

Camcleod25 Jun 2019 7:52 p.m. PST

"The true shako Rouleau was a post Second Restoration thing?"

I assume this uniform with a Shako Rouleau is correctly identified by the Musee de l'Armee

Officer, Chasseurs a Cheval (1813-1814)

link

Personal logo Unlucky General Supporting Member of TMP25 Jun 2019 8:40 p.m. PST

A short while back I researched the 7th for my own project. I hope the link to that blog article helps. link

Widowson26 Jun 2019 11:10 a.m. PST

Unlucky – that's some very useful stuff, and as you say, "the agony of choice" is clearly involved.

Some sources indicate, and Marbot's surviving uniform attests (with some accomodation for age) that the 7th wore blue dolmans and pelisses for the 1815 campaign. Interesting that the elite company retained their colpacks in lieu of the shako rouleau. Could be that the uniform color was changed under the restoration and left that way for the 100 Days.

My unit will be non-specific 1812 or later, so I'll go with green and red overalls. Reversed colors for the trumpeters – I hate that Imperial Livery and it's impossible to paint. Red shako for the trumpeter, lighter green for the rest. It'll have to do.

Prince of Essling27 Jun 2019 8:42 a.m. PST

The photograph of the back of the shako (in "La Cavalerie Legere de Premier Empire" by Histoire & Collections does definitely show a green patch.

The text also says firmly that the dolman colour was "vert fonce" and not "bleu imperial" this was due to pigment change over the years.

Rigo planche of the 7th

picture

Widowson27 Jun 2019 12:26 p.m. PST

No disagreement that the 7th wore green throughout the Napoleonic period. The question is, were they wearing it at Waterloo? Since some sources, including Marbot's surviving uniform, say they wore blue. Did the Bourbons of the 1st restoration change the color while Napoleon was away? I'd say it's a possibility, and would explain these errant "blue" sources. I'd also say it's a possibility that Marbot's uniform faded from green to blue and that sources claiming the blue color are simply false. But there is no denying that there are period sources claiming blue.

Camcleod27 Jun 2019 7:00 p.m. PST

'Histoire & Collections' book 9 says that only the first 6 Hussar Regts. were kept during the First restoration.

During the Second restoration all the former Regts. were
disbanded and six new Regts. were formed, although they mention that the new 'Nord' Hussars (4th) wore the uniform colours of the old 7th – ie. green dolman/pelisse & red breeches.

Widowson28 Jun 2019 12:56 p.m. PST

So the 7th was disbanded when Napoleon went to Elba, and reformed upon his return. You'd think they would wear the same uniform as before, but maybe not.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP28 Jun 2019 1:38 p.m. PST

I thought the picture of the Officer of Chasseurs a Cheval was fascinating. It is just what Perrys show in their metal range, the command set officer. The rest have a much lower but still cylindric shako (more like British pre 1812 look).

Fashions evolve. The Restoration could not have invented new looks out of the blue…but things like the Crested helmet with also a horse tail, of the Musketeers or Gendarmes d'Elite were pretty unique. That chap just screams at me 1816, although he may have been a trend setter. What about that waist level for the jacket? How typical of the time.


Interesting that the same link takes us to other hussar shakos described as late Napoleonic, more like Marbot's and not truly Rouleau. I freely admit, the look is just superb and I can well imagine fashionable wealthy officers were starting to sport this look. But the troopers???

Prince of Essling28 Jun 2019 2:11 p.m. PST

Musee de l'Armee photo of Marbot's shako – colouring looks more green than the other photographs above (may be due to the illumination…)
link

As a further demonstration of colour change from green to blue due to the passage of time – here is the pelisee of a Garde D'Honneur
link

SHaT198412 Jul 2019 6:16 p.m. PST

>>It is just what Perrys show in their metal range,

Sir,
you cannot, at any time, rely upon a 5th hand model or artistic showing of ANY item of any period manufacture and hold it out to be accurate.

Whether this be model soldiers, trains, boats, planes or actual 'restoration' artifacts. Companies simply make up stuff and 'compromise' to hard-sell things, and historical societies equally often fail to identify and reconstruct items to original.

When i was researching at Musee d'Armee Paris I was regularly pleased to see items of clothing or military equipment identified as 'reconstruction' or 'restoration' (ie 3rd Empire changes) in order to complete an ensemble.
regards davew

SHaT198412 Jul 2019 6:19 p.m. PST

>>The dolman and pelisse are both dark blue. I have seen it several times now and walked around the glass case trying to find a seam that preserves the original green.

Agree. Again there is an extant Dragoon surtout in Md'Armee that is entirely blue.
regards davew

*This has forced me to bring up the slide collection of my European research tour. ;-)

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP13 Jul 2019 1:28 a.m. PST

You cannot leave us with "When i was researching at Musee d'Armee Paris" to quote. What a wonderful little "aside" that is.

You have a slide collection too….

Most of us get an hour or two in La Musee de l'Armee before the kids or spouse gets fed up and wants to move on. (My Mrs was totally captivated by the gibernes of the Restoration…and they are beautiful workmanship).

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