mysteron | 18 Jun 2019 1:23 a.m. PST |
For Cruel Seas basically a question of yes or no ? The rules as they stand allow torpedoes to be used this way should both players allow it . I have looked at RN losses for MGBs and MTBs and none appear to be attributed to torpedoes. However a colleague on the Cruel Seas Facebook group had a creditable source stating that some S boats were lost in this way. Now from a game point of view I can clearly understand the rationale of allowing it at it would allow full use of the starter set boats as the Vospers in my view are basically redundant unless large targets are available . So I just wanted to see what view you guys had on this subject . Thanks |
Bellbottom | 18 Jun 2019 3:45 a.m. PST |
I think any commander who wasted valuable torpedoes, by firing them at other small craft (with the unlikely possibility of a hit), wouldn't stay in his job for long. |
colgar6 | 18 Jun 2019 3:46 a.m. PST |
I'm not an expert on coastal craft, but I vaguely remember reading about an occasion when a [British] trawler was hit by a torpedo. Extraordinarily, it survived, but that's not really the point. The tone of the piece was that: (a) torpedoes are expensive and/or in short supply, therefore unlikely to be used intentionally against such a low-value target. Note that a trawler is about the same size as an MTB [very roughly speaking], though there is obviously some variation within these classes of ships. (b) even if someone desired to launch a torpedo against an MTB/MGB/S-boat, these are fast, agile, small craft with shallow draught. The chances of a hit in real life would seem vanishingly small, even against a disabled or unaware target. Having said that, I'd go with whatever the game allows and just enjoy the ride – that's how most people will be playing it! Hugh |
Fitzovich | 18 Jun 2019 4:35 a.m. PST |
I wouldn't allow torpedos to target medium or smaller targets unless there are special circumstances as provided by the scenario. |
Thresher01 | 18 Jun 2019 6:45 a.m. PST |
I wouldn't permit it either, since they are such shallow draft, and very maneuverable. It's very unlikely to get a torpedo hit on one of these, even if the torpedoes do work correctly. |
mysteron | 18 Jun 2019 7:29 a.m. PST |
I am with you guys on this subject. The club allow hits on small boats on a 6 using a d6 . I would still say that was generous and a D10 more appropriate. |
Andrew Walters | 18 Jun 2019 8:11 a.m. PST |
I don't like prohibiting players from doing things that are physically possible, so if I was making the call I would definitely allow people to fire torpedoes at small craft. I wouldn't allow a roll to hit, because that would be silly. |
Lee John Ayre | 18 Jun 2019 9:30 a.m. PST |
I recall a coastal warfare game published in a magazine years ago. You lost victory points for each torpedo launched which meant they were best saved for use against high value targets such as cargo vessels. Quite an elegant way of gaming them I thought. May have been in an early Miniature Wargames. |
Bob the Temple Builder | 18 Jun 2019 9:56 a.m. PST |
As far as I can remember, most MTBs/S-Boats had a draught of less than 2m/6', and some torpedoes had a minimum running depth of 1m/3', so it would be feasible for the MTBs/S-Boats to fire torpedoes at each other … … but most torpedoes were designed to dive after launching and then rise to their running depth, and if running too close to the surface, straight running could be affected by wave action. So in theory it's possible but very unlikely due to the above plus the cost of a torpedo and the difficulty of hitting a fast-moving, manoeuvrable target. |
Joe Legan | 18 Jun 2019 11:23 a.m. PST |
Depends on what type of game you want. As several people stated torpedoes were expensive and would not have been wasted in real life on a mtb. If that is important in your games than I wouldn't do it. On top of that the odds of hitting the target would be about 2% unless the target was stationary. |
ScottWashburn | 18 Jun 2019 11:32 a.m. PST |
I would say do whatever feels right to the players. Personally I say no. Actually I'm more concerned with the minimum distance for torpedoes to arm. In a recent game my opponent launched torpedoes at a juicy target and then the next turn I got the first move and slid one of my S Boats right in front of the torpedoes which then hit the S boat before they could arm, saving the target and doing no damage. Seemed a bit gamey to me. |
goragrad | 18 Jun 2019 1:04 p.m. PST |
Not only a bit 'gamey' Scott – in reality a 30-40 kt torpedo weighing 1800-3400 lbs (18 or 21 inch) hitting a metal framed wood hull S-boat moving at 30+ kts would probably do some serious damage without exploding. I would expect it to punch through. Even a glancing hit would probably also do serious damage – rupturing the hull if not punching through. Being hit by more than one would compound the damage. |
PzGeneral | 18 Jun 2019 1:31 p.m. PST |
I played Cruel Seas for the first time at a 'Learn to Play' event at ORIGINS last week. I was British and managed to torpedo a S-Boat quite nicely. WOOT WOOT!! I say. Had so much fun I proceeded to the Warlord booth and bought a starter set and a Japanese and US fleet box. Then I bragged about my torpedo hit only to be told by the Warlord Rep that Medium ships can't be hit by torpedoes. The guy running the game had made a mistake…. DON'T CARE!! I did it!! Had a ton of fun and was sold on the game |
deadhead | 18 Jun 2019 2:58 p.m. PST |
Remind me..at what depth did the "average" torpedo run? I am not interested in a magnetic detonator, but an impact one that only goes bang if its nose hits summat…and even then must be at a right angle. Surely commonsense must dictate here that, if gaming is to have any credibility, there must be some realism and attention to history. Shallow fast moving boats will not fire sub surface, relatively slow, torpedoes at equally fast moving, shallow and highly manoeuvrable boats. Or if so will do no damage.
Unless it is all just meant to be fun of course…oh yeah. Maybe that is the point! Nice one
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Lion in the Stars | 18 Jun 2019 6:18 p.m. PST |
Torpedoes usually ran fairly deep, 20ft or more. When the Shinano was sunk, the commander thought that the Mk14 torpedoes were still running ~10ft deeper than set and so ordered them set to 10ft for an impact depth of 20ft. Turns out that the Mk14s depth issue had been fixed by that time, and that the Shinano had a weakness in the anti-torpedo protection at 10ft. So that was an extra-effective accident. For what it's worth, even a relatively small Liberty Ship has a loaded draft of 28 feet and an empty draft of about 20ft.
Even with a modern, guided torpedo, we didn't consider small boats (and anything under 200ft long is 'small'!) to be valid (heavyweight) torpedo targets. You don't carry many of them and they are expensive, so you want to get the biggest bang for your buck. |
Thresher01 | 18 Jun 2019 7:41 p.m. PST |
I believe I recall reading that a 6' depth setting is considered to be shallow (other than perhaps a surface runner), and even moderate seas would make depth keeping difficult. More normal ones are 12 – 18 feet, for many torpedoes. Also, many had difficulty keeping their depth settings during the early to mid-war period, along with a number of other failings too – the most serious one being failure for the contact detonator to work properly, unless striking a target at the perfect angle. I agree, at fast speeds, and with such heavy objects, even non-detonating hits would do serious damage to a light, wooden hulled vessel. Even in the Med., the US and British had a tough time sinking those MFPs/AFPs, even when loaded. Empty, they had a pretty shallow draft, so the torpedoes would frequently pass under them too. Only later in the war, around 1944, or so (mid-1944, I think), did the US and British really come to terms with sinking these, once they got more reliable torpedoes, and could fire pairs of them at targets (after the torpedo shortages were over). |
David Manley | 18 Jun 2019 10:41 p.m. PST |
A few things on this. Torpedo depth settings (and gyro angles) were generally set prior to a boat's departure on an operation, so they would be set against the expected targets. That would generally be a depth of several feet for use against general cargo ships and small warships. That said, depth keeping wasn't precise and there are several examples of MTBs, MGBs, S Boats and R Boats being hit by torpedoes that ran shallow. In those cases of course the hits were accidental, the craft themselves were not targetted, they just happened to fall into the path of a rogue weapon. Shallow draft targets were an obvious problem, especially in the Med, but from mid 1943 RN MTBs began to set their torpedoes for zero depth running to be able to engage them more effectively, and I think US PTs did the same. Magnetic fuses also became more common which allowed deeper running weapons to be used effectively against shallow draft targets as well. Zero depth running and (to a lesser extent) mag fuses allowed targetting of small craft and there are a very small handful of cases where RN MTBs did this. There is a common theme to their use (1) the target was invariably dead in the water so the torpedo was intended to administer a coup de gras, and (b) the boat CO was usually "told off" afterwards for expending an expensive weapon. On the question of numbers of torpedoes launched, RN MTB doctrine throughout the war was to launch pairs of weapons, not to use them singly, regardless of any shortage or not. The reason for this was that the use of two weapons greatly increased the chance of a kill. Going through dozens of action reports over the last few years I've regularly seen boat COs criticised by squadron senior officers for making single weapon attacks, with reminders as to the need to launch in pairs.3 |
mysteron | 19 Jun 2019 1:57 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the input guys The consensus of opinion here appears to be that torpedoes shouldn't be used against medium and smaller target as in the rule book . I am in total agreement . However it does beg the question as to why Warlord chose the Vosper, which is primarily a torpedo armed boat to appear in the starter set with only the tanker ( template) being a viable target? IMO the Fairmile D which is a good all rounder perhaps should have been chosen for the starter set instead. |
deadhead | 19 Jun 2019 2:21 a.m. PST |
What superb responses. Quite fascinating, even for a visiting Napoleonic buff! The whole torpedo story is quite intriguing. From the "What ifs?" of early German submarine attacks and equally US Pacific early days with duds…..to, in contrast, the incredible record for the "Long Lance" of Japan. There should be a book on that, indeed there probably is!
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David Manley | 19 Jun 2019 2:43 a.m. PST |
@mysteron – agreed, an odd choice of boats in the starter set. The misnamed "Type 1 Vosper' and a 70' BPB motor gun boat would have been a better combination |