Help support TMP


"Landsknechts or Swiss Pikes in Field of Glory FOG" Topic


11 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Ancients Discussion Message Board

Back to the Renaissance Discussion Message Board


Areas of Interest

Ancients
Renaissance

641 hits since 11 Jun 2019
©1994-2019 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

battle master11 Jun 2019 5:13 a.m. PST

How does one represent these blocks of figures in FOG rules? Previously I had based them as 4 bases of 4 figures in a block to include the halberdiers and two handed swordsmen within and included within the bases as for DBM/DBR.
However, with FOG it seems that the halberdiers and two-handed swordsmen are classified as 'Heavy weapon' and have separate bases. However, how are these then incorporated within the formation on the tabletop? i.e. is the pike block one base wide and four deep with halberdiers at the side? This would not be historical though as the these heavy weapon armed men should be within the centre of the pike block?
How are these represented with figures in the rules?

Personal logo Condottiere Supporting Member of TMP11 Jun 2019 8:05 a.m. PST

However, with FOG it seems that the halberdiers and two-handed swordsmen are classified as 'Heavy weapon' and have separate bases.

Then FOG is very inaccurate. Halberdiers and two handed swordsmen (only a handful in a Landsknecht formation) should not be separately represented in the battlefield. They were part of the field square.

GurKhan11 Jun 2019 8:33 a.m. PST

The Swiss did use separate bodies of halberds, at least occasionally; Florange described a body of them falling upon his arquebusiers at Novara in 1513:

"Et furent constrainct les dicts Suysses d'abbandonner iiij c hallebardiers qui'ils avoient, et allerent donner sur les hacquebutiers lantskenecht qui estiont huyt cens, tellement que les rompirent, et adoncque les hallebardiers qui donnerent sur les flans des dicts lantskenecht."

(p. 127 of the edition of Florange v.1 at link )

Personal logo Condottiere Supporting Member of TMP11 Jun 2019 12:37 p.m. PST

True, but whole units of halberdiers as represented in FOG, I doubt it. Detachments for specific tasks—probably.

Midlander6511 Jun 2019 12:45 p.m. PST

Normally you have a block of 8 or 12 bases of pike (2 or 3 wide x 4 deep) and a couple of bases of halberd / two handed swordsmen at the back. Initial impact is fought by the pikes and then you expand out the heavy weapons as an overlap or to counter an overlap.

picture

https://smallitalianwars.blogspot.com
https://midlandshipyard.blogspot.com

madaxeman11 Jun 2019 3:23 p.m. PST

As the last guy has said. Separate bases of Halberdiers in very deep multi-base units (as many as 16 bases) with the halberds counting as Pike bases if they are in the first 4 ranks.

They are allowed to "pop out" as overlaps as combat continues past the initial clash if (and only if) they are "extra" ranks over and above the pike ranks who can count as fighting. When "popped out", because they are spare bases they will be fighting as overlaps so they fight in one rank, but at ++, so they hit on 3 rather than the usual 4 or 5.

It's actually a really cute mechanic – it encourages you to use Kiel's in really deep formations (which is good) and also means that as combat continues between two pike blocks the one with the halberd/doppelsoldiers can often start to use them to have a small but important role in tipping the balance in their units favour – with the halberdiers acting in a manner which is disproportionate to their numbers (but not game breakingly so)

Yesthatphil11 Jun 2019 3:40 p.m. PST

I agree with madaxeman … it might seem clumsy when you read the paragraphs in the rules but works quite nicely in the game.

I don't think the game is particularly inaccurate in this respect and there are *not* (generally) whole units of hallberdiers.

Phil

Personal logo Condottiere Supporting Member of TMP11 Jun 2019 4:45 p.m. PST

The last couple of explanations makes more sense. It's been quite some time since I've played. Glad there aren't separate units of two handed swordsmen and halberdiers. It'd be too much like Warhammer.

battle master12 Jun 2019 6:07 a.m. PST

Thanks for the info guys. Will re-base my landsknechts now with separate bases of halberdiers and 2-handed swordsmen and just have pikes on the 4 regular bases. Will look much better than before which on some bases only had 2 pike figures

Puster12 Jun 2019 7:34 a.m. PST

If you want them to look good, use a pikeman on the sides of the "heavy weapons" base. That way the block looks solid from afar, while still having a majority of heavy weapons doing the actual fighting.
When on presentation, you can move the heavy weapons forward, so that at least the last rank is made up of pikemen, too. This way you even get the original positioning correct.

Helbards and 2-handed swordsmen can be mixed, though – no gain in doing seperated bases. If you place the odd heavy weapon in the front rank it would not be totally amiss, too.

Afaik you can field a lost hope with heavy weapons only, but just one small unit and only in a limited timeframe. Normally they are just part of the "Keil" – imho not the best of terms to use for a pike block.

David Taylor12 Jun 2019 3:05 p.m. PST

For FOG I field my Swiss pike keils in battle groups of 10 bases, 2 wide by 5 deep. In each file, the front base is entirely pike, the next two bases have two halberdiers in the centre and a pikeman on each end, the fourth base is all pike and the fifth base is all halberdiers – this is the one that can move out to form an overlap in combat.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.