"sarissa phalanx movement in WAB-style games " Topic
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Mars Ultor | 07 May 2019 11:02 a.m. PST |
Actually I play mostly CoE, but it's still a WAB relative. Unless I read the rules wrong, a trained pike formation is allowed to march-wheel like any other unit, which I find hard to believe could happen. I know that the Macedonian phalanx had a lot of disciplined training, but, when confined to our rules system, that's equivalent to the fluidity of a Roman maniple unit. Does anyone know if they could really move that quickly? I have images of the phalanx wheeling in the Alexander movie, and it was solid but slow to turn. Thanks for help or pointing me to sources. |
JJartist | 07 May 2019 3:31 p.m. PST |
WAB as a system suffered from not having a rules editor that could solve these issues on a global scale. The evolution of lists from AoA to the Alexander Supplement- other Greek supplements that never saw the light of day, and other supplements that also used the phalanx rules could never really be herded together. Much of this came from the original designer and Jervis' desire to make the rules as free form as possible. Each author was free to do what he pleased. Unfortunately Jervis then left overseeing the projects and then the idea that the game books had to try to have more internal consistency. I had argued that Macedonian phalanx needs some limits and the hoplite phalanx needed to have a little more freedom. My problem was- I could never set the rules for already in print AoA, or the redone version of WAB 1.5 that included the old Greek lists. Allen Curtis also agreed that we needed internal consistency between his work and mine to allow the Successors to work against Romans- unfortunately all the Successors lists were available to us and testers, but not to the public (but did mostly find their way via the bootleg into COE and WAB2 etc). I had long argued that the Macedonians should also suffer the reduction to half movement if they wheel at all- with only Drilled troops being able to have the freedom now allowed. The Successor's lists had very few if any Drilled phalanxes- so they were much less maneuverable against Romans. Alexander's veterans on the other hand would be drilled in comparison to any of their enemies- but they would then have a extra reason to upgrade to the extra cost. Ultimately that gave way to the compromise in the AtG supplement where the Greeks in that period were given the same freedoms as the Macedonians- simply because of a desire for them to be able to compete, and operate in Alexander's and the Persian army. Plus the authors of the Greek supplement had their own ideas, and Allen had his own. Sadly the main cause was an inability to cross pollinate other works that had the same troop types with new ideas. One of the main reasons why my desire of not insisting on the Mac phalanx being penalized for wheeling was I also wanted them to be able to move on the oblique up to 45 right and interpret the movements done at Gaugamela and Issus. But this meant more verbiage, and it seemed it was over burdening, so it was dropped. That idea was simple though, a phalanx could drift 45 degrees but would lose 1" of movement, or 2" if marching. Again extra detail at the expense of yet more rules baggage. As for the historicity of Alexandrian phalanx operations- they do seem to be far more supple than hoplites. But less so than how WAB ultimately treats them IMO. However since WAB only had the Alexandrian model as a foundation (which was the most drilled and veteran group of phalangites ever) that kind of got handed up to all others. The Successor book as originally written severely downgraded Successor phalanx maneuvers to the levels described above in this note, which allowed Romans and others to avoid contact much easier. And that is how it worked out on the testing table- but was never published. |
TMPWargamerabbit | 07 May 2019 6:34 p.m. PST |
MU, Since we also use the Clash of Empires rules I looked at the MRB on phalanx movement. Pages 111-112 cover phalanx formations and their restrictions on movement. Reading the MRB I found the following. Also I would refer to the "Drilled" rules found on page 102. Phalanx rule regarding movement: Rule#2 Unless Drilled or Trained, the Phalanx cannot march and wheel period. Basic simple maneuver wheel allowed but not at doubled marching rate so will take time for wheeling the unit (no charging either). Undrilled / Untrained phalanx can only oblique move to its right when moving forward. No leftward movement at all allowed. Note: You would need to reform the phalanx and face in leftward direction first then move on next turn is my understanding on the process, keeping in mind no leftward movement from new facing of phalanx. Rule#3 No maneuvers for 90' or 180' formation turn allowed. Again the phalanx would need to reform first to new direction, then start movement on next turn. Rule#8 Cannot charge outside of its charge corridor. This is important to remember as the phalanx closes to enemy contact range. Costs 5cm unlike 2cm for maneuvers to maximize contact. Classical Phalanx Rule section regarding movement: Nothing applies towards movement except for Phalanx rules above. Note that basic or classical phalanx units cannot use column formation on battlefield per rule A and B. Trained Rule regarding movement (found under the Classical rule): Rule C: May use column formation (non combative formation, see Page 13). Rule D: Trained phalanx may use 90' and 180' turns and wheel/oblique while marching (double rate movement and non combative). Important…A DL TEST is required to perform your March Wheel movement. The Romans don't require a DL test for their march wheeling movement. Trained phalanx charge like normal units so the charge corridor restrictions don't apply. Michael aka WR |
Mars Ultor | 07 May 2019 6:59 p.m. PST |
Wow, thank you, Mr. Jonas, for that bit of historiography – it explains a lot of what developed in the good old days. Much to digest. Unfortunately, CoE never got to publish their Successors book either and now few people play what is a good game system. But fortunately I DO have a copy of your WAB Successors list ( a hardcopy only), which it seems was online for a short window when I luckily saw it and helped myself. I will look closely at it again. One nice thing about the manipular ROmans of CoE is that Hastati cannot replace Principes – it's a one-way street. I really like Allen's HaTPW supplement, but from everything I've read this was pretty much the reality, that once the Hastati retired they were done (and in most of my games they are pretty depleted). Same for the Principes and Triarii, there is a hierarchy of replacing. Stuart probably looked at the WAB Republicans and didn't like the idea of a revolving door swap. Thanks again, I'm getting around to completing my Pyrrhic army, so I'll take a look again at the Successor phalanx. Vale! |
Mars Ultor | 07 May 2019 7:26 p.m. PST |
WR, Good to hear from you again, Michael. Yes, I like all the limitations and then I've always thought that the Trained rule almost undoes all of it. BUt actually, now that you mention it, Trained is not nearly as powerful as Drilled; it does not allow the automatic march-wheel (like Drilled does for an advanced maneuver) and there are those other limitations still in place. I just checked the online lists, and no Core troops in the Seleucid, Ptolemaic, or Later Hellenistic lists has Drilled. So that's much better than I thought. Hmmm, I will have to study them again before I re-engage with the Seleucids and do some planning. I have a working draft of a Pyrrhic army for CoE, since it's not a traditional Successor army (if there is such a thing). I double-checked it with Mr. Jonas' WAB Pyrrhic list to make sure I was on track (so thanks again, Jeff!), though after that conversation above I removed Drilled from all but the Chaeonians, who are considered a Support choice (his elite force). Thanks for the reminder! |
JJartist | 08 May 2019 2:37 a.m. PST |
I'm happy that folks are still using my (admittedly dated) material on ancientbattles.com . This is why I keep it running. As for the bootleg Successors list- I am not even sure if that one was the earlier version that had the more truncated phalanx rules that made them similar to the Greek list, or the later version. Mainly it was posted for reference. The very first version of AtG was Alexander and his Successors, with Greeks, Persians, Indians. The format followed Nigel Stillman's brilliant "Chariot Wars"- since that was my first template. That initial manuscript was complete, but then the shake up at the parent company created new directors for their non 40k-Fantasy projects, and I was asked to split the volumes. Sadly I agreed to that. In hindsight it was a terrible choice, the revised AtG with extra historical verbiage came out late, it was overall meh in production values. Of course the worst result of all is the Successors are my preferred arena of interest, and the decisions made by folks precluded that from ever appearing. The best part was my team of testers really did some great unheralded volunteer work- and we were able to have a lot of fun with the games. Memorable games indeed. |
Condottiere | 08 May 2019 6:55 a.m. PST |
I'm happy that folks are still using my (admittedly dated) material on ancientbattles.com . This is why I keep it running. I find your site to be immensely helpful and inspiring. Thank you for your efforts to maintain it. |
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