"Why wargames have plummeted in popularity" Topic
22 Posts
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Tango01 | 30 Apr 2019 9:12 p.m. PST |
"Where wargame were once the major choice for people who wanted to play games that required thinking for success, now wargames are a small niche. What happened? It's a litany of how game preferences have changed. No sooner did I complete the Six Reasons Why Wargame Popularity Has Plummeted that I thought of a clear seventh. Most wargames are historical, though there are many fantasy and science fiction games as well, some based on books, comics, or films, some invented whole cloth. As we move further and further from World War II people seem to be less and less interested in history. Add to that the tendency nowadays to avoid anything that's uncomfortable (it's the Age of Comfort), and people turn away from historical games because it reminded of nasty people, nasty nations, nasty institutions such as slavery, and so forth. So it's not surprising that there's less interest in wargames." YouTube link Amicalement Armand
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Thresher01 | 30 Apr 2019 11:21 p.m. PST |
Says who? In a lot of cases, it has just morphed into on-line, and/or computer gaming, I suspect. |
Flashman14 | 30 Apr 2019 11:52 p.m. PST |
Regretfully, I think he's basically right. He's mostly not thinking about miniature gaming though that makes the case perhaps worse as having to actually construct an already slow, complicated amd competitive game cleaves off another tranche of potential adherents. |
jurgenation | 01 May 2019 2:14 a.m. PST |
yep…you can tell from the demise of Hobby shops. |
Jcfrog | 01 May 2019 2:51 a.m. PST |
Not sure about hobby shops. "blame". One can now see (well…) and buy fast, without efforts stuff from everywhere. And how can a shop stock and compete with its own suppliers who basically can produce on order and by definition make far more margin than you, with somehow less expenses (if they are in a cheap place, do everything, -for 1-2 people small biz- from sculpting to selling-). That there are more or still many small biz, is more a sign of resonable margins possible (esp. with the 28mm figs which only cost marginally more to create than 18 or 6!!). If you only need to sell 300 of each to make money, then it does not matter if there are 2000 or 250000 customers as long as they buy. |
Jcfrog | 01 May 2019 3:01 a.m. PST |
The video of this guy is spot on. Maybe misses the dying white European culture on top of it- as I think wargames were also something that was pushed by family ties with this past, wars, history… The new (young)inhabitants have no connections at all with history "we" (I!) want in wargames, Napoleon(s), SYW, even Romans hey. And shcool is not going to bring them any. Education, books and as he said rightly what could be called fashion, or I'd say the herd syndrome and the media-education moulding from early on. It takes a lot not to blend in. Nearly no more historical wargames. same with model trains Not sure about models. Same trend with historical novels I would be curious to see the sales of "proper" wargames for computers, not surprised if only in a few 1000s each. |
Jcfrog | 01 May 2019 3:24 a.m. PST |
For example, I am now in a place where you can find maybe a dozen more or less "historical" gamers within 45 min drive. Most are over 40, in groups of 2-4 doing their own things, each one independently, not interested at all in anything else than this. If I try widely to "recruit" considering the prevalent education -not speaking of the "all in English syndrome"-(same in Russia btw, I would have to start from scratch like Martians. No one has any idea of what is a company,vs bataillon, regiment, destroyer, cruiser etc."military words", any varnish would be from TV shows… Like explaining Chinese in serbo-croat. Would they and I have the patience? |
Extra Crispy | 01 May 2019 6:24 a.m. PST |
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Gone Fishing | 01 May 2019 6:28 a.m. PST |
I have no idea if wargaming is dying on the vine, but I can say that similar handwringing has been going on for at least 25 years and the hobby is still here. |
WarWizard | 01 May 2019 6:31 a.m. PST |
I had no clue wargamming is dying. Especially when I see all the games listed on the Historicon PEL. Over 500. With varied genres and periods.We are in the Golden Age of wargamming, aren't we? |
Flashman14 | 01 May 2019 6:33 a.m. PST |
Longer than that – I have a Courier from the early 80's talking about the graying. As we love it, historical miniature wargaming is predominantly, but not exclusively, a boomer pastime. (I'm an X-er). Boomers are retiring which will healthily sustain it for some time, but it's not a growing sector of all the available ways to recreate. |
StoneMtnMinis | 01 May 2019 6:46 a.m. PST |
Demographics are destiny. Compare the current average age of gamers now to the average age when you started in the hobby. That is a good indicator as to if a hobby(any hobby)is growing, static, or declining. So, look at your gaming group or club and draw your own conclusion. |
HMS Exeter | 01 May 2019 7:13 a.m. PST |
+1 Extra Crispy. 1) Define Plummet. 2) Predict in one hand and crap in the other and see which one fills first. 3) Years ago people predicted that board games were dead, killed by computer and card games. Then the cost of publishing board games "plummeted" and back they came. 4) When I was in grad school a prof had a board of pithy observations on his door. One read, "If they had had computers in 1850, they'd have predicted that, given the preferred mode of transport, we'd be up to our necks in horse dung by now." 5) About 20 years ago I saw a 60 Minutes spot on the dying of Baseball Cards as a hobby, largely as a result of a generational shift. The 2018 Cleveland BB Card Con drew 40,000. 6) Double Blather. 7) I think Professor Pulsifer (what a handle) should be invited to Historicon. I think that the HMGS gimme this year should not be a bag, but a nerf gun, which we can use to express the degree of plummeting interest upside his oversized coconut. Pfffffffffffffffft! |
robert piepenbrink | 01 May 2019 7:29 a.m. PST |
I used to think I knew something about this subject. Now I am less sure. Does anyone have a good way to detect small groups of solo gamers who don't attend conventions? Or to distinguish lead mountains from castings turned into armies, and figure out how many armies are actually played with? My gut feeling is that historical miniatures have declined as a share of wargames, and horse and musket games as a share of historical miniatures, but I simply do not know how to test either hypothesis. Can anyone add numbers to the debate, or is it all opinion? |
HMS Exeter | 01 May 2019 8:42 a.m. PST |
RP Re: question 1, (Solo gamers) I can envision no way to reliably gauge this. Too many confounding variables. But, there might be a TMP Poll lurking in there somewhere? Re: question 2, (lead mountains) I doubt this would end up being informative. Any gamer who has more than 25% of their lead painted is some sort of alien aberration. Re: question 3, (%age of historical games) Get ccs of con booklets as far back as you can and track trends of listed games counting historical (by period) vs. Pulp, SciFi,Fantasy,etc., year by year. To be sure, historical has declined. My gut would be that in 2000 historical would have been ~85-90%, 2018 ~75%ish. Just my gut, tho. |
Sgt Slag | 01 May 2019 9:21 a.m. PST |
I remember reading/hearing this back in the mid-90's, when I was getting into historical war games, as well as fantasy wargames (non-GW). Heard the same clap-trap about D&D, back then, too… If D&D is any indicator, look at the popularity of 5e D&D RPG. It has gone mainstream, in TV shows, and more. People are learning there is more to life, than what a glowing monitor can offer them, even on the Internet. I introduced my sons to both tabletop wargames, and tabletop RPG's. They played WoW for a while, but they grew tired of its limited interaction -- the AI, and the fixed environments, paled compared to what a living/breathing referee could introduce into their games. They also learned to appreciate what a miniatures game, without any AI, can do to challenge them. My gaming group is going strong, and having more fun than any computer will ever offer. Cheers! |
SultanSevy | 01 May 2019 12:27 p.m. PST |
What he says about traditional hex & counter board wargames is definitely true. While board gaming is experiencing a renaissance with so many new games being published it's almost impossible to keep up with it all, there has not been a comparable resurgence in the types of wargames that Avalon Hill made famous. But what Mr. Pulsipher said does NOT apply to miniature wargames. We live in a golden age of miniature gaming, truly spoiled for choice with great rules and figures for just about every period, terrain, battle-mats, paints, etc. When I was growing up in the 70's & 80's, my figure choices mostly came down to Citadel (GW), Foundry, and Ral Partha. Now we have so many more major players such as Reaper, Mantic, Perry, Warlord Games, Gripping Beast, Osprey Games, Privateer Press, Battlefront, North Star, Too Fat Lardies, and a wide variety of other great smaller companies. Companies don't typically start with the hopes of LOSING money, so this shows there's DEMAND out there for these products. So NO… miniature wargames are not losing popularity. |
HMS Exeter | 01 May 2019 12:47 p.m. PST |
Tho I must admit, the Euro games he referenced are very original and a delight to play. See Carcassonne. |
etotheipi | 01 May 2019 4:35 p.m. PST |
I simply do not know how to test either hypothesis. Can anyone add numbers to the debate, or is it all opinion? What? Data? That's just crazy talk. It's much more useful to talk about a worldwide pastime by looking at what is happening to me and my specific preferences for that pastime. The pure fabrication of "information" to support the author's personal gripe lost me at "Where wargame were once the major choice for people who wanted to play games that required thinking for success," Most heinous bit in my opinion: I am not sure that the author has ever actually played or even seen many of the collaborative, building boardgames that are taking over players from "our niche" if he thinks hex and counter games look complex and fiddly. |
Thresher01 | 01 May 2019 7:03 p.m. PST |
"yep…you can tell from the demise of Hobby shops". I'm with SultanSavy, given all the new historical miniatures producers, ranges, rules, etc., etc., I find that premise hard to swallow. You need look no further than Facebook and the many active groups there too, in order to see it is growing, e.g. with the likes of Bolt Action, Blood and Plunder, Chain of Command, What a Tanker, Nightfighter Ace, and many other boardgames, etc., etc.. Certainly, the historical wargaming products distribution model has changed, but I dare say it is in its ascendency, given ALL the new offerings from many, many companies, with no doubt, more to soon follow. If you add in the computer and other gamers, too, then the market is really booming, and not a small niche. |
londoncalling | 02 May 2019 8:07 a.m. PST |
and with 3d here already, all I can see is a boom time happening. It's created a whole new dimension and a new business model for the artistic types who either don't want to/ or the economics don't support a traditional factory/shop approach, and can just sell 3d print files ! We are yet to see the true impact of this across the industry but it's coming. The King is dead, long live the King… |
UshCha | 02 May 2019 9:52 a.m. PST |
War games shows are reducing a bit in the UK. That is because modern folk buy on the internet and can see pictures. In the Old days (not by the way the good old days)you had to buy a catalogue (not cheap) or go to a show. The internet removed that millstone. All shops not just model shops are failing due to the internet. In the UK its cheaper (car parking in cities is now daft money) to buy online and the choice is way beyond ANY single shop to stock so they are pretty much not the first point of call if you want stuff. As has been said the rise of 3D printing is a revolution, kids with no manual skill but computer skills can make gaming pieces no problem. So demise of model shops is no guide certainly in the UK of a demise in the hobby. One sad issue in Europe is the requirements for child safguarding means young folk under 18 can be excluded as few wants to spend war gaming time doing child safety courses so the entry age has had to increase. Games Workshop can do it but there prices reflect this and there games have no command over me. Its still a small sector and it always will be but I do not see it as failing, our club has "young" under 40's playing and joining so its still staying alive. Now will it start to die as an "industry" the less altruistic can exploit? I hope so. Smaller players who are keen to bring novel concepts to market with a more tolerable profit margin are on the rise and we are better for it. |
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