"Napoleonic Bavarian Infantry Flags take II" Topic

I had made a post earlier inquiring on possible new information to help solve the puzzle of what vintage flags were being carried by the specific regiment for a specifc campaign ( 1809 and or 1812)
Link: TMP link
There was very little revealed.
Ref: Mr Pendlebury's info:-
link

Since that time I have gotten through Russian and Austrian flag researching, as well as further info on the Bavarian flags present during the 1812 campaign.
So it seems the this puzzle still has had very little progress in puzzle cracking!
Since I am current re-vamping by Bavarian forces to 1:20 and a full Division the need to determine who is caring What was again brought forth. I could simple randomly pick several of the GMB flags of the different issuances, placed the regiments on the floor and tossed the ( Liebfahne versions) flags in the air over the units thus letting the one that landed closest prevail!
Before I take such approach I have determined another, and one based on "Historical flag mfg. approach", from the research experience with the Austrian, Russians, and Bavarians so far in addition to the flag vexillogy.
For example…. the Austrian 1804 issue resulted in only 2 or 3 regiments receiving such flags prior to stoppage and progression to 1806 model. A know regiment being the Hoch und Deutschmeister IR #4.
Approach:
1) Bavaria was immulating the French, so as in French Light units carrying flags as of Holenlinden ( ~1800) and after going to the side of France, so to would be the Bavarian Light units ( also I have not run across solid information that states otherwise either).

2) There is lag time for order of new design, tool build and then launch of mfg. I made assumption, of limited resources for the flag making and time to make flags per Austrian, Russian and ACW confederacy facts to timing examples of 2 sets ( set being 1 Lieb + 1 ordinare) per year. The 1786 model did not start to be issued to units until 1788 , for example, and this meant only a few sets per. Enough sets for all the regiments could not be possible, as one is sometimes led to believe by the 3rd party resource author's words.

3) The 14 line + 2 Grenadier+ 2 jager regiments who would be carrying the 1786 model are mapped per the 1799 reorganization's reshuffle.

4) The 1800 model has 4 ½ sets made prior to stoppage for the 1803 model launch. It has a similar but different Barvaria Emblem than the M1803 and not that of the M1786 or the M1808.

5) The orders of 1801 & 1803 for increase number of flags per regiment has little impact to the results.

6) The 1803 Model has the virgin Mary no-longer part of the Liebfahne. The rhombohedral are increased in size for the solid pattern Ordinarfahne for easier mfg…thus; a) new tools are required to be build and b) this facilitates the 2 row lozengy pattern due to the their size, c) left over smaller rhombohedra's facilitated a finite number of 3 row lozengy patterns with the new 1803 Emblem model of Bavaria made after 1803 stoppage of the earlier Mfg M1800. Therefore there were 2 version of the Lieb and 3 versions of the Ordinare during 1804 to 1808.

7) After some qty of flags received, they were issued per need then per regimental seniority( of 1799 reorg).

8) How is there 4 row lozengy? Perhaps 1 or more sets of prototypes, that did not receive the order to be made ( difference lozenge size – new tool required) were used to support the shortage need, experience in replacing the flags in 1813, for all the loss of all in the 1812 campaign.

Thus the 1809 campaign could have look something like this:
IR #1 – M1800 L & O ( 3 Lozengy)
IR #2 – M1800 L & O ( 3 Lozengy)
IR #3 – M1800 L & O ( 3 Lozengy)
IR #4 – M1803 L & O w/ full pattern (2 Lozengy)
IR #5 – M1786 ( later issue so still relatively new)
IR#6 – M1803 L & O (3 Lozengy)
IR #7 – M1786 ( later issue so still relatively new)
IR #8 – M1803 L & O w/ full pattern (2 Lozengy)
IR #9 – M1803 L & O w/ full pattern (2 Lozengy)
IR #10 – M1786 ( later issue so still relatively new)
IR #11 – M1800 was retired but received available/ recycled M1786 ( later issue so still relatively new) from it restatement in 1807
IR # 12 Vacant- M1786 flags put in the reserve pool
IR # 13 ( 1805) – M1803 L & O (2 Lozengy)
IR # 14 (1806) – M1803 L & O (2 Lozengy)

1st Lt Btn. – M1803 L (2 Lozengy)
2nd Lt Btn. – M1803 O w/ full pattern (2 Lozengy)
3rd Lt Btn. – M1803 L (2 Lozengy)
4th Lt Btn. – M1803 O w/ full pattern (2 Lozengy)
5th Lt Btn. (1803) – M1800 L ( 3 Lozengy)
6th Lt Btn. ( 1804) – M1803 O w/ full pattern (2 Lozengy)
7th Lt Btn. ( 1808) – M1786 L
So if there information that sheds more light to this puzzle or gives those currently doing research on the subject some more direction of what to reveal would be good. Otherwise I hope, at the least, some found this interesting!
Happy Army building and gaming!

Excellent stuff.

A detailed article about the flags of the Bavarian Army Museum collection by Jürgen Kraus in the journal "The Flaggenkurier" (29/2009) can be downloaded as a PDF file in two parts:

Text – PDF link
Images – PDF link

Very interesting PoE!
It is shame there is not a translated version ( I struggle here due to shortage of time and too much time away from my German) and since the museum seems to not have a copy of any of the ~1800 version, so He seems to not mention such.

It would be interesting to know how other collectors had determined what version of the Bavarian flag for their units.

Especially since, it is documented fact that all versions of some Quantity were lost in Russian in Oct 1812 and most have been documented to exist at the Church that Russian forces had stored/ dis-plied these artifact at!

thanks for looking!
MG

You must check Hekkel, who covers the colours the Russians captured in 1812 – a lot of Bavarian colours – regiments 1 – 11.

It was available for download at the home page of Markus Stein, see link

link

seemingly not any longer but write Markus an e – mail, he is very helpful.

Appreciate the support vW!!!
The link goes to Napoleon OnLine and thus I do not see any connection to Herr Stein E-mail address, needed to write to him.
I have a copy of Hekkel and I am very familiar with it.
It indicates a version that most likely is M1800 I mention.
Otherwise, It made it clear that correlation to any specific unit was lost or cannot be determined from the Russian description of a specific relic.
Though, such would help greatly ( knowing the 1812 correlation) as to cracking the puzzle, my interest is a "snap shot" of 1809 and thus would not completely confirm this campaign as to flags do to the mix of the M1808 carried in 1812.
Mr Stein's PDF did confirm the emblem for the M1803 and M1808- which is greatly appreciated.

MG

Rawkins booklet on the Bavarian Army (older version – will dig out my copy of the newer version and correct text if appropriate) says:

"Four basic types of flag were issued to the Bavarian infantry regiments between 1786 and 1814 and carried during the Napoleonic wars. Details concerning which standards were carried by any particular regiment at a given time are vague and as many of the older pattern flags continued to he carried after the official withdrawal date more than one pattern may have been carried by a regiment and pattern frequently varied between regiments.

The regulations of 1801 stated that each regiment should have four flags, two of Leibfahne pattern and two Ordinärfahne. Both were of the same basic design, the Leibfahne was 173 x 173cm square and the Ordinärfahne 155 x 136 cm. The edging was of alternate lozenge dicing of
light blue and white with the central field white for the 1786 Leibfahne and bore a figure of the Madonna on the obverse, the figure shown with roya1 blue cloak and scarlet robe, brown hair and infant of natural colours. Above the figure was a white banner with gold lettering bearing
the motto 'SUB TUUM PRAESIDIUM VIRGO GLORIOSA'. The feet of the figure rested on a light blue globe with red serpent and silver moon crescent on a field of cloud. The reverse of the flag bore the coat of arms with scarlet, ermine lined cape, tied with gold cords, silver crown with gold
mountings and the lion in natural colours with red tongue and silver sword. The central oval shield had a circular scarlet centre with gold orb, the upper left and lower right quarters being diced light blue and white, and the opposites black field with gold rampant leopard. The laurel
and palm sheaves were green, bound with scarlet ribbons. The Ordinärfahne had a light blue field and bore the coat of arms on both obverse and reverse.

In 1803 only one Leibfahne and one Ordinärfahne was carried by each regiment, these being of the 1786 pattern, the Leibfahne being carried by the regiment's 1st Battalion and the regimental flag by the 2nd Battalion. Late in 1803 a new flag of oval diced pattern was introduced to replace
the 1786 Ordinärfahne, although some regiments seem to have continued to carry all patterns of flag. A second set of flags was issued in 1803 identical to the earlier Ordinärfahne pattern but the Leibfahne now had the coat of arms on both obverse and reverse on a white field, whilst the Ordinärfahne had the light blue field.

New standards were again issued in 1808, although one, unspecified regiment carried the l786 pattern during the 1809 Austrian campaign. The new flag measured 170 x 170 cm and had a diced border with light blue field for the Ordinärfahne and white field for the Leibfahne, without
the border. Both sides were identical bearing the coat of arms of the new Kingdom with scarlet, ermine lined cape gold fringes and cords and gold crown and canopy edging. The central shield was diced light blue with scarlet inset shield with gold swords and crowns, the whole edged with
gold and surmounted by a gold crown. The lion supporters were natural colours with gold crowns and bore diced flags on gold staves, the orders and medallions were gold. Cravats were issued with the 1808 pattern flags and were either embroidered with an inscription or floral
motif, and were white with gold decorations and fringes. Following the 1812 campaign the lozenge patterned flag was again issued to regiments 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, and 10 replacing both the Leibfahne and Ordinärfahne whilst the remaining regiments would appear to have continued
carrying for the most part the 1808 model flag.

Pikeheads, or finials, were brass and prior to 1808 were mostly of the rampant lion pattern, and from that date were replaced with a leaf-shaped design with the new Royal cypher embossed."

go to

napoleon-online.de

click at impressum – at the right hand lower corner and you will find it.

Dear PoE

I have Mr Rawkin's information and suspect some inaccuracies with his conclusions, though wonderful as they are.
I confirm there are two versions of the Emblem of the type in 1803 ( single lion behind shield) and believe it would have to originated ~1800 order/design. The Hekkel confirm both designs present at the 1812 captures and that a LONE regiment was carrying the 1786 pattern as well in 1812 campaign.
Yes, after 1812 would be easier to understand who had what, as Mr Rawkens indicates some good info. My unfortunate dilemma is what 1809 looked like.

Thanks @ v W – making contact.

My understanding now is this new book from Stein and Bunde et. al. has some definitive information on the subject. Can any one confirm or deny?

link

MG

Or possibly
Bd. 15 Bayerische Fahnen
Die Fahnen und Standarten des bayerischen Heeres vom 16. Jahrhundert bis 1918
Von Jürgen Kraus
Wien 2017, 325 Seiten, mehr als 600 Fotos und Abbildungen, Leinen gebunden mit Schutzumschlag.
ISBN 978-3-902526-83-0 (Deutsch)

Preis: €79.90 EUR link

Dear Marshal,

the book covers the flags and standards generally on four pages – but no regimental list like in your research above. Unfortunately the very valuable Müller/Braun has no section about the flags.

Fiebig writes in his book about German flags that the first battalion of the 13th regiment still had the 1803 flag until the 20th century – it was the blue/white flag with central shield (Fiebig shows the flag with a s/w photo).

If I find more information in the regimental histories about the 1809 flags I'll post it here.

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

All- thank your for your interest and replies.

@ NapStein ! that would be appreciated and I still forward to the copy of your book soon to arrive next week, on the Bavarian Army 1806-1814!