"PSC - more 1/72nd kits back in stock" Topic

Which version of 20mm was that? 1/87, 1/76 or 1/72? A lot of the early gamers used 1/87, 1/72 is a relative new comer to the market compared to 1/87 and 1/76. Also you must be really old if you started before any 15mm WW2 …

I am really old. What's wrong with that? It beats dying young!

My early models were 1/76, Airfix and a few Japanese brands, but it's all 20mm, and I don't mind mixing in some 1/72. As I understand it, not all 28mm lines are the same scale either.

A long long time ago in a galaxy far far away I remember when we played HO scale, starting with Rocco and using what HO scenices the local Hobby Store carried. And we weren't picky. EVERYTHING was HO scale, 1/72, 1/76, 1/87, 20mm, 25mm, if you could find a model of it you used it!

Never could figure out why every bloody new manufacturer had to come out in a new scale!!!

And as for niches, hate to break it to you guys but ALL of wargaming is a VERY small niche market, some of the niches are just microscopic while others are visible, with a large magnifying glass!

The poster who lamented only having a choice of 15mm and 28mm in their local shop should jump for joy. The 3 shops that were within an hour drive of me have all closed. For most of us now gaming is a mail order affair played with your 2 or 3 other gaming friends when their wife lets them.

Of course if you're rich you can afford to dump $500 USD-1000 to spend a few days at a major Con playing other people. Not to infer that wargaming is on life support, but its definitely made it to the geriatric ward. Hospice is probably just around the corner. Cheers!

I wonder why 28mmFanatik views niche things as somehow being poorer and some how inferior.

I own alot of niche historical books… it's an odd thing to think that you should somehow be disappointed in a 'niche' set of rules that's sold thousands of copies and has a very active community.

I wonder is it's a lack of understanding of the product, it's ethos and the community that is the issue. As so said… BG isn't like BA or FoW.

Guys. I genuinely think you are misreading what Fanatick is trying to say. For a 28mm gamer he is actually quite positive about BG, and is just suggesting ways PSC could maybe move it forward and make it more accessible.

Leon. Well, I guess I am lucky at 15 and 28 being available. But they are not for me. I just wished these same shops could stock 1/72. Bit like I wish Airfix would realise there is a wargames market and try to meet some of that demand. Their distribution network is global, so they could have a tremendous impact. Sadly, they see the future as 1/48 scale planes. PSC looked like they were breaking Into the box set market (I have found them lurking in model shops for example). But they need to have better distribution and stock levels

And Leon. Yes, I get lost with you. Are you 6mm, 1/144, BGK, 20mm. Or all of them 😀. Either way I always value your input as you clearly know some stuff

GW and Dalling Road. I painted their display figures. So if you admired the cabinets, well, that was me. I drifted away from fantasty in line with GW drifting away from being a games store. They haven't missed me it seems.😉

Yes he is Marc, fair point.

Though my point is I'm not sure it's a product that will have that sort of market penetration due to its design and ethos.

It's a game largely written cos the author wants to play it.

Guys, I genuinely think you are misreading what Fanatick is trying to say. For a 28mm gamer he is actually quite positive about BG, and is just suggesting ways PSC could maybe move it forward and make it more accessible.

Exactly, though I'm used to oversensitive people taking unnecessary offense in what I have to say. When PSC released Battlegroup Kursk and the various campaign supplements along with a slew of 1/72 plastics (both infantry and vehicles), many gamers – myself included – can be forgiven for thinking: "Awesome! We now have a great set of rules AND a dedicated line of 1/72 models that could rival FOW and BA in availability and popularity."

Alas, our optimism proved to be unfounded and it just wasn't meant to be. I stand by my original contention that Battlegroup can be just as big in the WWII wargaming market as the two heavy-weights, BA and FOW, if only PSC had the will to make it more than just a niche game. Trying to make BG more commercial, mainstream and accessible a la' those heavy-weights shouldn't be a bad thing. The rules and the glossy production value of the BG books are truly first rate so why not give it the marketing treatment enjoyed by FOW and BA? It's such a shame it isn't made as available in order to compete with those other games.

As for my "preferred scale," I have pretty much ditched 28mm and BA for WWII gaming in favor of 15's so dissing the scale doesn't really hurt me. I'm keeping my moniker though since I still have lots of 28mm sci-fi stuff.

Cheers and happy gaming.

I'm not sure it's a product that will have that sort of market penetration due to its design and ethos.

It's a game largely written cos the author wants to play it.

Coulda fooled me. It looks a lot more than simply a "labor of love" to me. Don't sell yourselves or other gamers short, but whatever.

No… it's pretty much a Labour of love. :)

The rules were written because the author wants to play it. The supplements chosen are because we want to play them… my Battlegroup Blitzkrieg book was utterly a work of personal indulgence.

The books look like they do cos that's how we like books to look.

It's written largely for ourselves… just lucky others like it. Not sure how that's selling anyone short… but whatever.

As for PSC, up to them how they market it. Not done much yet in six years but the Facebook group and forum chug along without them and WSS feature a few articles.

Up to them to sort it out I'm afraid.

' Yes, I get lost with you. Are you 6mm, 1/144, BGK, 20mm. Or all of them'

Different scales for different purposes Marc and wanting to try something a bit different and to try and make something 'better' than whats already out there. Not that that always works……….
Horse and musket hard to do in the larger scale so 6mm suits it, large scale ancients 10mm is a really good scale, large scale WW2 actions need to be in the smaller scales I think ( I have 200+ T34's! Mad is the word your looking for……….) and 20mm is just a pure joy visually and allows the modeller in me to indulge at slightly less time cost than 35th.
L

I am really old. What's wrong with that?

Chill, no one said there was anything wrong with it. It was a roundabout way of saying 15mm WW2 has been around a lot longer than most people realise.
There was a time when 20mm was THE scale to game WW2 in, but that doesn't apply now, in fact I am not sure there is a dominant scale. Locally I see 15, 20 and 28mm WW2 played. No 5/6mm or 10/12mm though. That doesn't mean there aren't people who play in those scales just not reflected locally.

The rules were written because the author wants to play it. The supplements chosen are because we want to play them… my Battlegroup Blitzkrieg book was utterly a work of personal indulgence.

The books look like they do cos that's how we like books to look.

It's written largely for ourselves… just lucky others like it.

That's too bad cus it could have been so much more.

Not sure how that's selling anyone short… but whatever.

What I meant was that you're selling gamers short in your statement below by assuming that the "design and ethos" of BG won't make it successful with the same level of market penetration as FOW and BA, thereby implying only those kind of games can succeed commercially. Give us some credit.

Though my point is I'm not sure it's a product that will have that sort of market penetration due to its design and ethos.

It's a game largely written cos the author wants to play it.

Okay, we got it. It's intended more for yourselves than the general gaming public. Sorry to bother you.

Maybe I'm not being clear…

Why does it need to be more? What 'more' does it need? Or do you just mean more commercial?

I'm honestly interested in what the 'more' is. :)

I'm not sure the fact that it isn't a competition based set will make it easier to market. I've always had the feeling it appeals to a certain type of gamer. Maybe it would… but that's up to PSC to decide I guess.

The point once more… it was written as a game to be played an enjoyed. Why would we write a game we don't want to play? It's written to be a game that is fun and exciting, and we know that as it's what we want. We play Battlegroup every week… cos it's our game. We love it. It's why we spent six years building a great community behind the game.

It's written to be that first before being commercial. If you want to read into all that something else… I'm sorry you feel so disappointed by the game and that it's n9t marketed in a manner that you agree with but it really was written to be a game to play than written as a commercial business opportunity. But we like it… and so do a few thousand others, so hey… cant be all doom and gloom.

I'm very pleased with how the game has been received on the whole. If more people play it and love it… cool. If they don't… that's cool too.

Or do you just mean more commercial?

That's precisely what I meant when I made the following statement in my earlier post:

I stand by my original contention that Battlegroup can be just as big in the WWII wargaming market as the two heavy-weights, BA and FOW, if only PSC had the will to make it more than just a niche game. Trying to make BG more commercial, mainstream and accessible a la' those heavy-weights shouldn't be a bad thing. The rules and the glossy production value of the BG books are truly first rate so why not give it the marketing treatment enjoyed by FOW and BA? It's such a shame it isn't made as available in order to compete with those other games.

If Battlegroup is given the same robust marketing treatment as the heavy-weight best sellers, BA and FOW, then perhaps more people would be enjoying it than the "few thousand others" you mentioned, because it's clear that BG doesn't need to be "more" than it is now in terms of quality, rules or gameplay. It's simply a great product that's grossly undermarketed.

But it appears BG is too much of a personal labor of love to become commercial. Maybe "a few thousand" fans is enough to satisfy the nice folks at PSC and the authors of BG who intended it mainly just for themselves, but that number is a mere drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things for Battlefront and Warlord. That's too bad, because BG could have been so much more.

Disagree with me if you must, but I suspect many others are of similar minds in regards to BG's low commercial ambitions and lost sales potential.

Whilst I both think you are saying the same thing, I would disagree about the authors not wishing to push it further. Since the rules came out they've put on large games at various shows and were very active on the guild.

I think the issue for battlegroup is not the rules but the availablity. As ive mentioned before I had all the books up untill Wacht but then gave up on gaming. Now I've returned it's hard to get the books that I'm interested in. It doesn't help for me that the new overlord doesn't include the ersatz list (I mean who doesn't what to do the 21st panzer or other odd training units)

I'm not a fan of FoW or BA but there is s loft of information and news from the publishers and it's keeps the interest refresh. To be fair to piers he does do this but regrettably I feel PSC don't so much

28mm Fanatik, I don't disagree with you particuarly… but what PSC do in regards marketing is nothing to do with me sadly. If it was, things would have been different along time ago.

I wouldn't however presume to know what large cohorts of gamers want outside the BG community. I have no evidence to base such claims on. I would just be spouting conjecture and hyperbole so can only offer my personal response and based on nearly seven years building the BG community online. I appreciate the compliments for the game, it could be more, not sure how much more, but at the end of the day, no amount of marketing or promotion will help if players can't buy books to play popular periods of the war.

To paraphrase Oddball, I just help write the things… I don't publish them. Hell… been a good few books since I've been paid for any writing…

So yes… it idea Labour of Love for me as it don't pay me. :)

The Young Guard, if you need the Ersatz list, let me know and we can get something sorted for you…

Piers,

I don't believe any criticisms were directed at you, Warwick or anyone else behind the creation and development of BG. If I gave that impression I do apologize. It's clear that most if not all of the gripes in this thread are aimed at the mess of a company that is PSC, whose items are seldom available (including BG).

28mm Fanatik

No need to apologise mate… and honestly, if it you have gripes at how BG has been treated, imagine how I feel. ;)

Hopefully things will improve, but we will have to wait and see.

When PSC released Battlegroup Kursk and the various campaign supplements along with a slew of 1/72 plastics (both infantry and vehicles), many gamers – myself included – can be forgiven for thinking: "Awesome! We now have a great set of rules AND a dedicated line of 1/72 models that could rival FOW and BA in availability and popularity."

Alas, our optimism proved to be unfounded and it just wasn't meant to be.

What are you talking about? They made all the basic stuff for Kursk. And there were/are so many other options for 1/72 how in the world can a lack of "a dedicated line of 1/72 models" possibly have impeded your ability to play the rules?

Some people just like to complain……

Started with Airfix/Minitanks (Roco) and Charles Grant's "Battle". (Then tortured myself with Tractics for a short period).

As to PSC – really like their kits and have many and intend to get more. Keep em coming.

As to Battlegroup – thought it had many good ideas but needed substantial revisions. Decision to go hard back – coffee table book style- was just following the crowd and as usual with followers they get buried in the dusk of the leaders (FOW etc.)

PSC should not tie itself to Battlegroup. Though I'm its intended market (WWII game with large 20mm) collection, I stopped early due to cost and game play.

Fortunately we have large local following for Combat Command so our 20mm stuff gets lots of work outs (with lots of PSC stuff on display). Likewise good turn out at conventions. We have more than held our own against FOW & Bolt juggernauts. Local store orders PSC stuff for us. Never underestimate the power of good rules and good miniatures. Hang in their PSC but move your model off a single expensive hardback rule system.

Thomas J. Thomas
Fame & Glory Games

Agree. I've always seen BG and PSC 1/72 as nothing other than complementary options. I have a lot of their 1/72 stuff although I've never played BG (although I do own the paperback of BG Kursk, just yet to give it a try).

I know a lot of people with Warlord 28mm WW2 who don't play BA.

I think what is clear from CATMAN's post is that it requires a considerable financial and warehouse resource to make this work. Which suggests PSC have over committed themselves with a large and varied product range. Even if it is over ambitious I salute them for their ambition and vision. Their challenge is how best to execute that and meet the demand of customer in what is already a very crowded and competitive market.

Generally when businesses get in this situation the recommended course of action is to consolidate, play to their strengths and divest themselves of products and ranges that interfere and distract from supporting the core ranges. Do a few things very well rather than lots of things less well. And, most importantly, rebuild your relationship with customers and restore confidence in you as a company and your products.

Well at least you have your own game to play Thomas in your local area… :)

It's nice to have options. I like pretty hardback coffee table books… but give over on the 'substantial revisions' thing. We went over that years ago. You don't like the game, fair enough, others do. Leave it at that mate.

What are you talking about? They made all the basic stuff for Kursk.

Yeah, but after the initial print run was sold out you can't get them anymore. You never run into that problem with FOW or BA books.

Some people just like to complain……

Well, excuse-moi for stating the obvious that PSC never makes its books and models nearly as prevalent or available in stores or online as BF and Warlord Games.

And that is the key point. The core books need to stay available to make this an accessible game. +1

…and that we all agree on. :)

I never said I didn't like the game and have run demos of it locally and have helped at conventions. I tried to give useful constructive suggestions to improve the game both from a playability, ease of use and historical perspective but it seems the very idea of feedback is rejected. I've worked with "PIP" system games for years and help develop some of the latest models but what use is years of experience with design concepts and running WWII games to BG? Apparently none. Normally I would be only to happy to promote 20mm projects – but they have to want to be promoted and that means feedback and improvements.

Folks that want to look at pretty pictures in coffee table books are going to go with Bolt or Flames. BG should have concentrated on players who want an efficient design that does a good job of simulating WWWII combat in a compact easy to use rule book (and at a reasonable cost). Its how Combat Command survives against the marketing bullies.

Thomas J. Thomas
Fame & Glory Games

" Folks that want to look at pretty pictures in coffee table books are going to go with Bolt or Flames. BG should have concentrated on players who want an efficient design that does a good job of simulating WWWII combat in a compact easy to use rule book (and at a reasonable cost). Its how Combat Command survives against the marketing bullies."

That sentence alone reveals you never bothered to read Warwicks words on how he designed Battlegroup, and why it is like it is. All the feedback sofar given by you in this topic is about 180 degrees opposite of that, so you can see why they don't need to use it. Though all your comments seem to be more about promoting the rules you have written….

Also, Battlegroup is doing fine, just the required reprints are lacking, and that is solely PSC responsebility, and we, the playerbase, need to take it up with them with every opputunity we can to get them to remidy that.

What a complex thread this has become! Surely the most obvious point is that there is a link between a product's popularity and its 're-stock'? If it isn't popular there may not be a re-stock, since that would have to be subsidized from more successful revenues streams (if they exist). If it's VERY successful, not to re-stock rapidly is commercially stupid. If it's middling, there lies the real danger.

When sales of a product or range are middling (in relation to the investment, that is) it becomes quite a call as when to re-stock, because that depends on: – lead times. A producer or importer may have to order the next batch before there is sufficient income in to pay for that. That means they need: – cash flow. So, my conclusion is that lumpy and unnecessary expenditure on Armies Armies, Board games, etc has not just made the offering seem diffuse and uncommitted, it also knackered PSC's cash flow. Marketing must be hell (or non-existent) when so many items are offered to several different markets – who, as we see above, do not really see eye to eye either!

Lack of focus is the business issue here, one that is more significant in wargames firms where capital expenditure is greater. (I can't help thinking that I still don't have my 1/72 Steyr Scout car order because attention was not paid to a core offer, rather than merely because of 'tooling difficulties'.) Scale is not particularly significant, since it is so easy to scale up and down at the production level. So I think Catman2 was wrong not to do a Chieftain. 1. He could have sold a lot in 1/72, and still sold plenty in 15mm when the CWTH concept was riding high. 2. What's the point of a range if you have to buy another party's stuff to play an actual game? That's how the big boys see it!

Hi all. I believe that the wargame market is not as big, nor as small as is generally believed. Maybe the mistake of some brands is to imitate the business model of FOW or BA, instead of seeking your confort point and maintaining it. In my opinion, that model is an unhinged way of doing business, always forward, almost a flight forward, they need to cover their customers with news, open new business lines and make one version after another of their rules and launch new figures endless. I'm horrified by that business model, it's too vulnerable.
As for the paper version of the BG, I consider that it is not a bad thing to use a PDF version, or read the ones that a friend can give you. Then, when they come out again on paper, you give yourself the pleasure.
Best wishes.

I can only agree Xan.
That sort of business model you describe is just madness, its akin to the 'constant conquest' empire model its not sustainable. But it is the current model all over the place.
As for PDF's I got a few, printed and bound by a copy centre and more than adequate for me.
L

At least it looks like whatever problems there were at PSC have been sorted out insofar as the Battlegroup rules are concerned. Only time will tell if the OOP books start to get print runs again.

On the 15mm minis front things are less rosy with PSC. I've pretty much written them off as an company to consider, even as site worth visiting. Their prices are not that much cheaper than Battlefront IMO but by far the biggest problem is that almost everything is out of stock, has been for months. Had they ever got any stock I would be concerned that they also don't do much outside of Germans but it's a moot point seeing as they are out of almost everything. It doesn't help that their customer communication is pretty much non existent, so you don't know whether the stock problems are a blip (albeit a long term blip!), when / if new stock is expected nor what is planned for the future. Whenever I look for 15mm figures now, PSC is not a site I waste time checking.