Tango01 | 17 Apr 2019 8:49 p.m. PST |
"A record 70 percent of Russians approve of Soviet leader Josef Stalin's role in Russian history, according to a poll published by the independent Levada Center pollster on Tuesday. Stalin's image has been gradually rehabilitated in the 2000s from that of a bloody autocrat to an "outstanding leader." President Vladimir Putin has revived the Soviet anthem, Soviet-style military parades and a Soviet-era medal for labor during his presidency…." Main page link Amicalement Armand |
Barin1 | 18 Apr 2019 12:05 a.m. PST |
41 percent said they respect him. It is a bit different than approve. There's a respect for german generals and engineers but it doesn't mean we aprrove of German role in WWII. What is true, and I see it myself, that a lot of people are ready to accept all repressions and gulags as necessary evil for survival of the country and victory in war. Even in Stalin times there were a lot of people who were not affected by anything – and even sometimes were happy that some of their neighbours were taken away.Nowadays it is even worse, as our granddads and grandmothers who went through all the hell are gone… |
Frederick | 18 Apr 2019 5:56 a.m. PST |
It's a lot easier to approve of someone who has been dead for 50 years |
deephorse | 18 Apr 2019 6:16 a.m. PST |
41 percent said they respect him. Not quite right. Of the 51 percent who viewed Stalin favorably as a person, 41 percent said they respect him, followed by 6 percent who sympathized with and 4 percent who admired him. It's surprising that some people still fear him. |
Barin1 | 18 Apr 2019 6:39 a.m. PST |
What I was trying to say, is that "approve" in the topic header doesn't equal "respect". As the poll was, naturally, in Russian,more precise translation of the options would be that these 51 % said that their opinion was "more positive, than negative". With older people who lived through 30s to 50s under Stalin, opinions were polar – some admired him, some hated him. With this generation almost gone there's a generation that forms its image of Stalin from the press they like to read, and some historians are all to eager to paint Stalin as a saviour. I wonder how he would be seen in another 30 years… |
Cuprum | 18 Apr 2019 7:08 a.m. PST |
The crimes of Stalin (and they certainly were), do not cancel his merits and achievements (and they are also indisputable). And these merits look outstanding against the background of the current state of Russia. In addition, a change in the negative attitude towards Stalin to a fairly respectful one is promoted by a significant increase in public interest in socialist and communist ideas and disillusionment with the capitalist model of social order. |
Patrick R | 18 Apr 2019 8:24 a.m. PST |
Under Lenin, people would claim the Tsar was better, when Stalin replaced Lenin they all regretted Lenin, when the Germans came round they figured Stalin wasn't that bad after all and when the Red Army came back they remembered that the Germans only killed the entire village once … The past is always remembered favourably and the present is always a hellhole, shift twenty years and the discourse is exactly the same. |
The Virtual Armchair General | 18 Apr 2019 9:35 a.m. PST |
Cuprum! I DEFY you--at the risk of being Dog Housed--to list Stalin's "indisputable merits and achievements." TVAG |
Aethelflaeda was framed | 18 Apr 2019 11:32 a.m. PST |
Winning the war against the Germans? |
Tango01 | 18 Apr 2019 11:43 a.m. PST |
Thanks Barin1!…. Amicalement Armand
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Marc33594 | 18 Apr 2019 11:53 a.m. PST |
While overly simplistic I would argue that the Russians defeated the German military due to the tenacity and fortitude of the Red Army along with the unbreakable spirit of the Russian people. I would further argue such actions by Stalin as the purges very nearly lost the war for Russia. Also how many in the survey actually lived under Stalin's rule? There always seems to be, no matter the country, a yearning for the "good old days" which usually, when objectively looked at, weren't so good after all. |
BrockLanders | 18 Apr 2019 3:12 p.m. PST |
+1 for Aethelflaeda was framed |
Cuprum | 18 Apr 2019 7:59 p.m. PST |
… I DEFY you--at the risk of being Dog Housed--to list Stalin's "indisputable merits and achievements"… Universal free education (including higher education), universal free affordable medicine, industrialization of the country (annually, for ten years, about 1,500 new industrial enterprises were commissioned in the USSR), collectivization (the creation of large farms agriculture,which allowed the use of modern farming methods – we are not discussing the brutal methods of this reform now), reforming the army (back in the 30s it was an army of the "militia" type), the rapid recovery of the country's economy after the terrible destruction d during the WWII, the creation of nuclear weapons. Approximately 2.5% of the country's population was subjected to repression (various, including forced relocation) (but you should understand that these were really millions of people). It's terrible, but you have to understand that for everyone else, life has become better every year. Among my friends and relatives, I know only one person, in whose family the grandfather was expropriated and deported with his family to Siberia. But then my ancestors, who were ordinary peasants before the revolution, all became doctors, teachers, economists, or professional military men. Is free. None of them has ever been a member of the Communist Party. |
Cuprum | 18 Apr 2019 8:20 p.m. PST |
…While overly simplistic I would argue that the Russians defeated the German military due to the tenacity and fortitude of the Red Army along with the unbreakable spirit of the Russian people. I would further argue such actions by Stalin as the purges very nearly lost the war for Russia… Is there, by chance, Stalin's merit in the creation of many thousands of industrial enterprises, infrastructure, and field development? Is there no merit in the creation of Soviet science, education? In the creation of Soviet military equipment (without it, I think it would be very difficult to defeat Germany and its allies)? In the organization of the emergency evacuation of Soviet industry before the advancing German troops (the main industrial potential was just in the European part of the USSR and had to be captured by the Germans, which would definitely lead to the destruction of the USSR)? The armed forces of the USSR on the eve of the war were increased 2.5 times. Skilled personnel would not be enough in any case, even if there were no repressions. So I think their influence is greatly exaggerated. |
Wolfhag | 18 Apr 2019 10:49 p.m. PST |
Communism/Socialism, it's great until you run out of other peoples money, or slave labor or countries to steal from. Ask all of the people sent to the Gulags or forced starvation what they think of Stalin. Chauvez, Maduro, Castro and many African Dictators admired him too. Wolfhag |
Cuprum | 19 Apr 2019 3:32 a.m. PST |
I disagree with you. Socialism is much more efficient than capitalism for the majority of the population (at least it always turned out like that in Russia). I judge from my own personal experience and that of my family. And believe me – this is despite the fact that I live well under capitalism, having a couple of my own small businesses ;) Chavez, Maduro and many African dictators can admire anyone, but they definitely do not have socialism))) In Cuba, perhaps they are. But I don't remember that Cuba flourished under capitalism. Although it was not in a half-century under sanctions))) But this is not the topic of our conversation. We are discussing a change in attitude towards the personality of Stalin in Russia. This is a real fact. About the famine under Stalin … I read Theodore Dreiser. He did not lie about the famine in the United States during the Great Depression? Who organized this famine? Someone from the American presidents? |
Aethelflaeda was framed | 19 Apr 2019 5:32 a.m. PST |
I wonder how the percentage of incarceration in US prisons compared to the Soviet Union then and now. Jim Crow and Neo-Jim Crow laws are essentially motivated to keep down whole swathes of people of a certain class. |
Legion 4 | 19 Apr 2019 6:32 a.m. PST |
Doesn't really matter … he's dead you know ! Now how they feel about Putin, … well … that's another story. At recent round table discussion I was invited to at the local University and my Alma Mater, YSU. All Vets in attendance, the one former USMC COL said, "Russia want to destroy us and China wants to own us !" I said, "That should be on a T-shirt !!!!" Regardless, I always like to hear what Barin has to say. Thanks as always !
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Zinkala | 19 Apr 2019 9:45 a.m. PST |
I wonder about the accuracy of polls like this. The numbers shown don't really add up so it would be interesting to know what the actual questions were and the actually percentages to each of the questions. My mother in law was a child under Stalin's rule and I've talked with a few of her friends about things like that. They didn't approve of him. Maybe some of what he did helped the Soviet Union become stronger but they didn't feel it was worth the cost. Respect Stalin maybe, feared him definitely but approve… No. 15 years ago when I spent a lot of time in Russia I liked the attitude I saw about a lot of things. Archives were opening, media was able to discuss things that had happened in the past without persecution and there was a sense of dealing with the past and moving forward. As a foreigner (helped that I'm canadian) there I was treated well by almost everybody I met and we were able to discuss our various views on things without anyone getting angry. I felt they were really trying to get over the Cold War and become part of the world. I haven't personally been back to Russia in years but I worry about what I've heard with the changing attitudes there. I don't think a return to Cold War mentality on either side helps anyone. I have to agree with Legion 4 about Barin1's post. I always find them interesting and thoughtful. They match more of what I saw in Russia than what I read in the media. |
Cuprum | 19 Apr 2019 10:13 a.m. PST |
I watched the statistics. The number of prisoners in the USSR exceeded the number of prisoners in the United States during the same period by 8–10 times (in terms of 100,000 population) (during Stalin's rule). Of these, 30% were convicted on political charges. The rest committed ordinary criminal offenses. Putin … I do not understand the enthusiasm about him. He leads Russia along the path of degradation. The one who is now afraid of Russia has little knowledge of the state of her economy))) It is impossible to wage a big offensive war without a developed economy. In Russia, the economy is miserable and gigantic funds are taken out of it every year. There is only a nuclear weapon that will allow to defend effectively enough in the event of an attack — Russia is no longer capable of anything more. Is that to participate in some local imperialist war, on a par with other predators))) |
Aethelflaeda was framed | 19 Apr 2019 12:35 p.m. PST |
Was that total number of prisoners or the percentage rate per capita? |
Keith Talent | 19 Apr 2019 3:28 p.m. PST |
"I wonder how the percentage of incarceration in US prisons compared to the Soviet Union then and now. Jim Crow and Neo-Jim Crow laws are essentially motivated to keep down whole swathes of people of a certain class." Currently the USA's rate of incarcerations per capita is the highest of any nation on earth. The USA puts more of its population in jail than any other nation. USA is about 724, Russia 584 per 100,000 population. link |
Aethelflaeda was framed | 19 Apr 2019 3:43 p.m. PST |
Wish I could get that same statistic from the thirties. |
Cuprum | 19 Apr 2019 5:56 p.m. PST |
Number of prisoners in Soviet correctional institutions: The first column is the year. The second column is a forced labor camp. The third column is a corrective labor colony The fourth column is a prison. Fifth column – total number of prisoners
The number of people sentenced to death in the USSR (keep in mind that there was no life imprisonment in the USSR – the maximum sentence was 25 years, which also makes its own corrections). The first column is the year, the second is the number of convicts.:
Number of convicts in the United States during the same period:
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Cuprum | 19 Apr 2019 6:21 p.m. PST |
In Russia, the archives are open (well, with rare exceptions of course). All numbers are available. Stalin was naturally not approved by many after "condemning the cult of personality" under Khrushchev, when the Soviet propaganda machine declared him a criminal))) It was the Soviets themselves who accused Stalin – but not someone else. In the absence of real data, it was not possible to understand the size of the events. Now such opportunities have appeared. Foreigners in Russia are traditionally treated well. Well, if they, of course, did not come in arms))) In Russia, you can still say anything. Representatives of the opposition, the United States, Europe, and Ukraine regularly speak at various talk shows on television, on central federal channels, and express their own views on various events that are directly opposite to the official ones. According to this freedom of speech in Russia there is a joke: "The chain was made longer, they were allowed to bark as much as they wanted, and the cup was moved away far." I hope the humor will be clear. |
Legion 4 | 20 Apr 2019 8:45 a.m. PST |
Putin … I do not understand the enthusiasm about him. He leads Russia along the path of degradation. Agreed … but he and his associates won't be doing the suffering. That is generally the way Dictatorships and oligarchies work.
In Russia, the economy is miserable and gigantic funds are taken out of it every year. There is only a nuclear weapon that will allow to defend effectively enough in the event of an attack — Russia is no longer capable of anything more. Is that to participate in some local imperialist war, on a par with other predators))) Totally agree.
The USA puts more of its population in jail than any other nation. USA is about 724, Russia 584 per 100,000 population. Sadly that is true. The US still has a lot of work to do internally. To deny that would to be wearing rose colored glasses. Lacking a realistic view of the situation. None-the-less I'd still rather live in the USA. Than any other place in the world, of course. If the USA was so bad … there wouldn't be the situation there is currently at the USA's southern border. I don't see masses of refugees flocking to the Russian, Chinese, North Korean, A/stan, or Cuban borders/shores. However, I'll freely admit I'm a little biased.
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Zinkala | 20 Apr 2019 9:26 a.m. PST |
There are actually a lot of immigrants from Asia trying to get into Russia from what I've seen. Comparatively speaking they'll get higher wages and a better standard of living in Russia than central Asia or China. Until the recent problems with Ukraine a lot of ukranians were working part time in Russia and many stayed permanently. Russia has it's problems but it's not a third world country. I've been around the world a little and Russia's far from the worst place I've seen. It's all a matter of perspective. |
deephorse | 20 Apr 2019 11:04 a.m. PST |
In Russia, you can still say anything. It doesn't seem to be that way. link |
Legion 4 | 20 Apr 2019 2:35 p.m. PST |
There are actually a lot of immigrants from Asia trying to get into Russia from what I've seen. Comparatively speaking they'll get higher wages and a better standard of living in Russia than central Asia or China. Now that I didn't know. But I don't think Russia would put up with the type of massive numbers of refugees. Like those trying to illegally cross the US southern border. |
Cuprum | 20 Apr 2019 10:32 p.m. PST |
Yes, this is a rather regrettable piece of legislation. But this is just the answer to similar actions taken in the West. New Cold War in action. link link link |
Fred Cartwright | 20 Apr 2019 11:03 p.m. PST |
But this is just the answer to similar actions taken in the West. New Cold War in action. Can't see the similarities Cuprum. The links you posted are to German legislation on hate speech posted online, the US one to transparency in political advertising and the French one about fake news, again during elections. In none of them could I see anything about being locked up or fined for criticising or disrespecting the government or the president as is the case with the Russian legislation. |
Cuprum | 21 Apr 2019 2:40 a.m. PST |
As far as I know, in many Western countries there is a responsibility for the desecration of state symbols, and for publicly insulting the authorities. What surprises you here? I see no cause for concern. I just do not like the legislative possibility of control over information. In fact, this is a real infringement of freedom, and an attempt to control the consciousness of people. And this process goes on all over the world. |
Fred Cartwright | 21 Apr 2019 3:09 a.m. PST |
As far as I know, in many Western countries there is a responsibility for the desecration of state symbols, and for publicly insulting the authorities. Not as far as I know. You can say what you like about the government, insult the prime minister, the queen, whoever you like. If what you say is not true then you risk being sued under libel laws, but that is civil law, so not a criminal offence. You could not be locked up for doing so. Not sure what you mean by desecration of state symbols. If you cause damage to something then you might be charged with criminal damage, but that doesn't just apply to symbols of the state, if you scratched my car you could face the same charge. I just do not like the legislative possibility of control over information. Again not sure what you mean by this. There has always been some controls about what you can say and print. It doesn't have to be complimentary, but it does have to be factual. The internet has created problems for the average person as the sheer quantity of information makes checking the accuracy of it very difficult and unlike the print media, which are generally pretty rigorous in checking the accuracy of the information they print, the likes of Google and Amazon seem to accept no responsibility for what is on their sites. Making them accept some responsibility does not seem an unreasonable step to take. But all of that is a million miles away from the US trying to stop another country's attempts to influence US elections by buying advertising space. I am sure the average Russian would be as unhappy if the US spent a large sum of money attempting to influence such events in Russia. |
Cuprum | 21 Apr 2019 5:41 a.m. PST |
We have very far shied away from the stated topic and I do not consider it necessary to further discuss Russian laws here. But, in order not to seem unfounded, I recommend that you familiarize yourself with, for example, the German Criminal Code. Chapter 3, paragraphs 90, 90a, 90b. It's ridiculous to even talk about whether the United States interfered in the internal affairs of Russia. What do you know, for example, about American advisers under President Yeltsin? Some of them succeeded so much in plundering Russia (and contributing to the creation of a criminal regime here) that they were imprisoned in the United States))) And now let's still go back to Uncle Joe. |
Fred Cartwright | 21 Apr 2019 7:25 a.m. PST |
Sorry had to have the last word! :-) But, in order not to seem unfounded, I recommend that you familiarize yourself with, for example, the German Criminal Code. Chapter 3, paragraphs 90, 90a, 90b. Interesting that the German legislation makes no mention of any office holder so you can say what you like about Angela Merkel, just not about the German state as a whole. What do you know, for example, about American advisers under President Yeltsin? Some of them succeeded so much in plundering Russia (and contributing to the creation of a criminal regime here) that they were imprisoned in the United States))) That sounds more like the criminal activities of people who happened to be American rather than an attempt by the US government to influence the choice of government in Russia. Sounds like the US government didn't approve or it wouldn't have locked them up. |
Zinkala | 21 Apr 2019 7:33 a.m. PST |
Now that I didn't know. But I don't think Russia would put up with the type of massive numbers of refugees. Like those trying to illegally cross the US southern border. I don't really know about the numbers of illegals but I'd say that Russia tends to be harsher with their enforcement on most things. In eastern Russia where my wife is from there's a large and growing population of people from various asian countries mostly China. Her father was from near Omsk in Siberia and there it was people from Kazakhstan and other central asian countries. I heard all of the same complaints there that I do here and in the US about foreigners moving in. |
deephorse | 21 Apr 2019 7:43 a.m. PST |
We have very far shied away from the stated topic and I do not consider it necessary to further discuss Russian laws here. But, in order not to seem unfounded, I recommend that you familiarize yourself with, for example, the German Criminal Code. Chapter 3, paragraphs 90, 90a, 90b. You more or less brought up the subject, and it now seems that you don't care for the responses you got. The German laws you point to are somewhat surprising, though maybe their drafting harks back to German politics of the 1930s. I note that para. 90 can only be prosecuted with the consent of the President, and hopefully any President will have broad enough shoulders to cope with a little ‘defamation'. Though what constitutes defamation does not seem to be defined. Para.90a does not have a direct equivalent in UK law that I know of, though if you were to remove, damage or steal State symbols you could be charged with Theft or Criminal Damage. |
Legion 4 | 21 Apr 2019 9:14 a.m. PST |
I don't really know about the numbers of illegals but I'd say that Russia tends to be harsher with their enforcement on most things. In eastern Russia where my wife is from there's a large and growing population of people from various asian countries mostly China. Her father was from near Omsk in Siberia and there it was people from Kazakhstan and other central asian countries. I heard all of the same complaints there that I do here and in the US about foreigners moving in. Again very interesting … But yes, we know some counties may be a bit "harder" on illegals crossing their borders. Not only are there security concerns, as always. But the bottom line is the cost, IMO. Who is going to feed, shelter, provide medical, etc. ? No easy answers … |
Cuprum | 21 Apr 2019 9:25 a.m. PST |
---That sounds more like the criminal activities of people who happened to be American rather than an attempt by the US government to influence the choice of government in Russia. Sounds like the US government didn't approve or it wouldn't have locked them up.--- The problem is that some of them were CIA employees. By the way, is there an unequivocal court decision on the undisputed Russian interference in the elections in the United States? Apparently I missed something. German laws are not the only ones (by the way, I saw statistics on their use in Germany for 2012, but, unfortunately, I cannot find out exactly where I found it. If you are ready to take my words for granted or to search for information on your own, it was condemned that about 14 people. However, in Italy there are similar laws and they also act and apply. We look at articles 278, 290, 292 of the Criminal Code. In Russia, there is still no practice of applying such a law. How exactly and how often it will be used is not known yet. In addition, the maximum penalty for such an administrative violation is a fine or arrest for 15 days, which is even more humane than in some European countries. |
The Virtual Armchair General | 21 Apr 2019 11:42 a.m. PST |
Cuprum! I weep for your eagerness to embrace the means justifying the end, and I do not for a moment believe you grew up under Soviet Socialism. My Russian Wife did, and since she despised it, I await you bounding to the conclusion that she--and I, of course--are closet Fascists. I do not think that millions intentionally starved to death, quietly murdered and buried in the countless strawberry patches now surrounding the major cities, and worse things done to human spirits, is the way to make any society "better." So glad you read Dreiser. Have you ever considered reading anything newer and by Russian authors on the subject? Ever talk to a Ukrainian raised during the Holomodor? Please remain warm and comfortable in the self-woven cocoon of your fantasy. I'd hate to see the expression on your face if you ever really understood what you are defending. TVAG |
Cuprum | 21 Apr 2019 4:55 p.m. PST |
The Virtual Armchair General! I do not remember something that I somehow justified the crimes of Stalin. There were crimes, millions of people suffered and a significant part of them were innocent. Justify this is impossible. This is not about Stalin's innocence, but about changing his attitude towards him in Russia. This is a fait accompli. Fascist or not you – it's you know better))) But I know for sure that the truth ends where exact facts are swept aside and only emotions remain. It is this – the way the manipulation of people))) I advise you to also take care of your own illusions – and continue to see the world exclusively in black and white))) |
Legion 4 | 22 Apr 2019 3:25 p.m. PST |
Yes, no matter what I don't think anyone did or can justify Stalin's crimes … Save for the hardest core communist types, etc. |
Daniel S | 23 Apr 2019 12:59 p.m. PST |
Legion, You would be surprised how many there are that do so and not just the hard-core Stalinists who tend to deny that Stalin commited any crimes at all. A classic example are those how more or less reluctantly acknowledge the Gulag system and the purges but change their tune one you get to things like the Holodomor genocide in Ukraine or the Soviet occupation and annexation of the Baltic states complete with mass murder and deportations that bordered on genocidal in scale. (Denial of events in the Baltic states is indeed Russian state policy and has been since 2005) |
Legion 4 | 23 Apr 2019 3:12 p.m. PST |
I guess … when you think about … that is probably true. A little concerning with Putin's predilections for trying to destroy the USA. Once KGB … always KGB … it appears … |