"Empire III vs V" Topic

When I started out with Napoleonics Empire II was it. I switched up to III and thought they were the bees knees (ok I'm double dating myself). Now that I retired I'm all excited to go back to III, but see that there is a IV, V and Revolution & Empire. As it appears that all of these are out of print do they offer a greater game in searching and maybe paying a premium for a used copy?

Welcome back. In a way, this reminds me of the Rip Van Winkle story. In its day, Empire was revolutionary although some said revolting.

First, if you find self double dating to be an exercise in futility, I would look around and see if there are any Napoleonic gamers in your locale. See what they are playing and if you might be interested.

Second, are you are still interested in 15mm or have your tastes changed to larger or smaller sized figures. There are great heaps of beautiful miniatures in all scales.

Take a look around this site and others via Mr. Google and see what has changed rules, figures and terrain wise in those intervening years. Have a good time and enjoy "retirement" gaming. Its a lot of fun!

If all fails, I may have a copy of Empire III down in the dungeon that I would be more than willing to send to you.

If you are deadset on Empire, V is the best and what mostly I have encountered groups playing. My old group in Va used V.

I would gladly change Empire over to General de' Armee for a "simulation-ish" type wargame. Other quality sets are out there, Black Poweder, Piquet FOB, March ATtack, Rank and File, General de Brigade.

Consider Age of Eagles. Plays well (historical results)

Another vote for General d'Armee.

Ha.. I thought this was the Empire group :) but it sounds like the consensus is to abort and look elsewhere. Someone wanted $120 USD for Empire V on Ebay, so that is what worried me and was wondering if I should have taken that plunge. Everything i own is mounted for Empire, and I have close to 3000 figures (Russian Army, 3 French Corp, 2 Prussian Corp, British = Waterloo without Allies, Misc etc.) so have no interest in re-basing. I do recall a lot of "Just roll and if it's low enough we will look it up" but i never thought it that bad. A bit pro French, but then again I was a bit Pro-French myself :)

Thank you!

I play EIII and in same boat as I am not ever rebasing again, did it once. Pondered something faster but time isn't of the essence so its not a motivation to change.

Very few people play any version anymore and, then, it is in someone's basement. I haven't seen an Empire convention game in decades. I played many Empire games back in the day but, unless you have like minded folks near you, I don't think anyone is going to bite.

I never forget when we all switched from Empire to Busck Surdu's Battles for Empire, what a relief.

Oh btw OP, have you looked at Le Fue Sacre?! It is based for Empire, yet uses a modern quick play with realistic results. Still 1:60 and uses the classic Empire basing. I am a fan of them. link

A $10 USD pdf to take a look. They might just be up your alley.

Second recommendation for Le Feu Scare. I've read it being described before as Empire but without the heavy lifting.

It's not expensive to buy and you may really enjoy it.

On military Matters has a new copy of Revolution to Empire for $50.00 USD.

link

Might also be worth taking a look at Elan Deluxe…also 'Empire-scale', but with the added advantage of being free.

link

Thank you everyone

Don't give up, I've purchased several dozen Napoleonic sets and actually played a dozen and keep coming back to Empire. Everywhere I've lived, well four cities, there have been Empire groups. En avant!

We play Empire V Lite all the time in the OFM's basement.

If you like "+2 for being French" rules, you will love Empire.
Of course if you play with the actual quality of the French involved, and there is a sliding scale of quality, the real advantage only comes in initiative.
You still have to play and roll well.

Hello Winston, are these rules written out?, what is the sliding scale of quality? Thanks!

plus its kind of the nature of the beast, aren't most WWII rules basically +5 for being German :)

If you are only using your own figures, or those of friends who also have theirs based for Empire, you could easily switch to a system like Black Powder that is relatively agnostic on basing specifics. You just need to organize your current bases into units that approximate the size/frontage of standard Black Powder units (keeping in mind BP has small, standard, and large units which should make it all the easier).

The sliding scale of quality is in the Empire V rules themselves. From Landwehr or worse up to Imperial Guard.
I can't summarize them. They're the heart of the rules.
As for "Lite", they're a private version of the original rules by a club member who refuses to distribute them outside the club for moral and ethical copyright issues.

Hi,

John raised a good point of whether to upgrade to V vs. III. I think it is worth the investment. Now, having said that, a lot of 5th edition players love Todd Fisher's upgrade known as Revolution and Empire (not to be confused with another rules set of a similar name), and sometimes I enjoy a game of that then switch back to V (5th edition).

I have been fortune enough to play in some big EV games over the past three years from Ohio to California and with seasoned players; the full-scale battle games all went off extremely well.

With regards to a newer version, a significant amount of time and effort was spent throughout the mid-to-late 90s and early 2000s in developing another edition. The playtests of that upgrade/version/whatever you call it went extremely well with all involved. On a tactical level, the basic maneuver element was still the battalion with many improvements on many levels.

However, by the early 2000s I didn't think it economically feasible to do the next edition of the rules, and so the project was shelved in favor of several books that have been released since then. These have been: Last Chance for Victory: Robert E. Lee and the Gettysburg Campaign (released in 2001), Napoleon's Finest (Davout's combat journal of 1805-06 translated and substantially augmented and expanded…2006), Napoleon's Apogee (Pascal Bressonnet's famous tactical studies of the 1806 campaign translated and substantially augmented…2009), followed by the multi-volume "Robert E. Lee at War" series, the first volume having come out in 2012 and the second volume having been released last year, with the other volumes in production, etc. So…from doing the research (a lot of it at the National Archives) to the numerous speaking engagements connected to the Lee project (I average about 40 per year), plus the desire to re-visit as another project the Armee du Nord of 1815 now that the complete official documents from the various archives have been published that augment the reproduction of the documents within the cartons from Vincennes already in my possession, plus working a job full time and more, there isn't a whole lot of time remaining, unless I can somehow figure out how be productive without sleep.

So it is a "never say never" situation but rather a "why" would it make sense to do the next version of the Empire rules situation that continues to be asked in my mind. Make sense?

Thanks to all who have the rules and still enjoy them.

Regards,

Scott

Its a shame Scotty has not achieve zero sleep and can still function. Of coarse that is reserved for "be in your 20s and changing diapers" only :-P.

The welcome of a better Empire/New, many of us Empire players still hope for. Maybe some day.
There were many suggestions for other rules sets. And they can make a reasonable game in a reasonable time. What I found, with growing up playing Empire is when have choice ( and time) I wood rather spend it/ keep going back to, playing a Empire game. It presents the best/closet game to waging that period's warfare.
@GlacierMi
Since you already know Empire III- I think you find it easy and possibly more enjoyable to do Empire V.
There was some subtle changes made to have the game flow and understood better.
R&E are very good equivalent.The only issue is players and the size of the learning curve to learn them. They are significantly different in play mechanisms that would have to be learned. It is also in thickness of rules pages as that of Empire V and will take many many hours just to read through. Like Empire, once you achieve a level of skill/ understanding and have equivalent level players to game with, makes for a good game.
Steve and I have gone back to playing Empire, but scaled back the size of the action for just 2 man play to allow faster flow/ finish time.
Yes there is not been any at conventions. These rules are not really suited for that kind of venue/ time frame. Players today do not seem to have the same commitment.

as to clarification of scaled back=
If 1 or 2 per side:
No one plays Corp level command-Orders set prior to game start- goal is to execute/fulfill those orders ( orders TYP. will not change or if have to the game can be called.
Each player plays a INF division and one may have a supporting cavalry brigade or two.

IF 3 or more per side:
Corp level is in play.
One player plays Corps Commander sand issues this level of order s appropriately per the rules. Players still push Division or two typical in Empire game but try to have min 2 players per Corps to facilitate game flow.

Thanks, Greg. Hopefully, conditions will return to make it possible for the next edition to appear. We'll see.

With regards to typical convention games, Greg is absolutely right. The best EMPIRE convention games I ran were all based on scenerios involving the specific forces that fought at Rivoli.

Regards,

Milkshake, where in VA is your group, if it still playing. I have been look for a group close enough to play EV for ages.

Our Empire group recently reformed and we switched from E2 to E4, Is EV significantly better than 4?

I think so. It does away with the skirmish combat phase. Which speeds things up. Besides the French always seem to win it anyway. This seems more realistic.

Going to V is a possibility

Where do they play?

Norfolk, all Navy vets. I recall one key member moved away so I hope they are still active.

Like Windows 95 is considered the OS must stable so with Empire III? Anyone agree. Oh I use V and like it though I have adapted it to multi Divisional level rather than Corps because of the size of my forces and table.

I wish I'd not lent my copy to another wargamer who moved away and near gave it back!

I now have a copy of Empire III and accordingly will produce a hybrid set of 'house' rules. For example will get rid of the 'Blown' cavalry concept as well as DUB cavalry
but keep the ME Determination Test and ME Morale Tests. Bombardment and Activation of Orders as in V. French morale and ace ratings increasing decline after 1808.

Winston what is Empire V Lite?

Comparing Empire III and V I note that one change in the latter (or maybe IV) was the introduction of restrictions on cavalry by use of the 'Blown' rule. In III Medium and Heavy Cavalry have two functions per impulse whereas light cavalry have three.There is no DUB cavalry (which may be good news for my Cossacks!) Charges now cost 3 Fatigue points at the end of the impulse (instead of 1 on V) and additional charges later another 3Fps. Any cavalry unit or ME which attempts further action with 6 Fps is simply asking to be defeated and should be Stood Down (III) or Rest & Rallied (V). I'm I right in thinking therefore that the 'Blown' and 1Fp rules was there to discourage over use of cavalry? If so I think the Empire III rules would teach the player of the folly of over use/misuse of cavalry more quickly. What do you think?

Infantry Fatigue.

If on ATTACK at the end of the First hour you receive 1FP. Do you receive another automatically after the second hour?
I tend to give 1 at the end of the first hours and then add additional Fps point only if Units are involved in Close action combat or Firefights. Have I read the rules wrong? I also give a unit an additional Fp if it goes into bad morale (or 3 if they 'Run for their lives.) Any comments?

Yes the 3 fatigue points after a charge impulse will end a cavalry regiments day, even more so on the second charge impulse.
I never used the infantry and should, your assessment is correct.

Hence having 2nd and 3rd line reserves is very wise. Never have figured out in EIII how to get that used up but still standing out of the way without losing momentum.