Come In Nighthawk | 10 Mar 2019 2:58 p.m. PST |
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Come In Nighthawk | 10 Mar 2019 2:58 p.m. PST |
Maybe the "bug" got me?? Sorry for the exssesive entries on a simple question! Thanks! |
14Bore | 10 Mar 2019 3:40 p.m. PST |
Only know a little from asking myself, lead oxidation that part will crumble away TMP link I never had a problem with this and have over 5,000 miniatures from 1981 onward. There are theory why, and as many how to prevent but for most part never have done much other than get then paint miniatures. In my outbuilding have unpainted since 1981 out in open and never seen it. |
14Bore | 10 Mar 2019 3:44 p.m. PST |
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robert piepenbrink | 10 Mar 2019 5:55 p.m. PST |
By all means follow the links. I remember it as mostly a 1960's and 1970's problem. Fred Vietmeyer, who was an industrial chemist, tended to blame the metals used--but he also said a decent priming job would prevent it. (Note we mostly used a plastic-based primer back then.) Some epoxies seem to have provoked it, too. I can remember a few "Command Post" casting with separate arms starting to go at the shoulder. Rick Vietmeyer, who inherited the collection, noted that while he was morally certain a number of the castings they bought painted had not been properly primed, there was no problem with figures which had been clear-coated with Krylon Matte, and a lot of those figures are 40 or 50 years old now. Mr. Vietmeyer (he will never be "Fred" to me)had some success attacking early stage lead rot by brushing the figure with lighter fluid which removed the oxidation and then sealing it. This matches with my own experience. |
Sgt Slag | 10 Mar 2019 7:48 p.m. PST |
I had a few miniatures which developed it: the lead turns into a white, powdery substance, as if the lead is rotting away. It can be removed with a gentle application of a wire brush, but the oxidized metal is gone. This white powder is highly toxic, so wash your hands after you get it on your fingers. I had only a small number of lead mini's during the early 1980's, but a few developed oxidation, with bits turning into white powder. Never knew what it was, until 15+ years ago. It is not much of an issue anymore, since the great "Lead Scare", in the 1990's, when the US Congress, in their infinite wisdom, banned most lead in the USA. That is when nearly all miniatures companies switched to pewter metals, and prices jumped, in our hobby. Those were not the best of times. Cheers! |
4th Cuirassier | 11 Mar 2019 4:19 a.m. PST |
Presumably this only affects lead figures, not those cast from lead free white metal a.k.a. pewter? |
irishserb | 11 Mar 2019 5:06 a.m. PST |
Of the 18000 plus figs that I have owned, I discovered just a hand full of figs with lead rot just a couple of years ago. The figures were painted, shortly after receipt in the 1982-1983 time frame, with Pactra and testors enamels, no primer, and coated with a brush on enamel clear-coat. When I stripped them with Simple Green, to repaint them, the surfaces were cratered pretty dramtically. There was no evidence of the lead rot, prior to stripping them. Once stripped, the figs very rapidly developed further rot, displaying the white powder oxidation in a matter of weeks, on the cratered surfaces. |
bsrlee | 11 Mar 2019 5:15 a.m. PST |
There is also a pewter rot, but its usually found in archeological excavations where the object has been exposed to water and cold for decades. Seems that tin metal has a couple of forms (allotropes) one is the familiar shiny silver form and the other is a crumbly grey mass. Seems the only 'cure' for that is to scrape away all the affected metal & keep the remaining material warm & dry. 'Lead rot' is a cyclical chemical reaction involving acetates of lead (acetic acid + lead) that goes from lead >acetate > oxide, which releases the acetic acid to continue the process. Good ventilation can stop most of it starting. |
79thPA | 11 Mar 2019 6:19 a.m. PST |
I had some unpainted Custom Cast from the 70's that got the lead rot. |
Sgt Slag | 11 Mar 2019 10:14 a.m. PST |
brslee: short, on point, and very understandable! Thank you! I remember the great lead-rot threads, here on TMP, back in the early 2000's(?). We had a few chemists post on what it was, but I don't remember any being as succinct as brslee. Bravo, Sir! Bravo! Cheers! |
Winston Smith | 11 Mar 2019 10:59 a.m. PST |
Lead figures stored in wooden cigar boxes were also susceptible. A lot of figures I bought in the early 80s seem to have been cast cheaply, and suffered. Back in that time, there was also a lot of home casting. Lead tire weights were recommended as being a cheap source of lead. To the detriment. I was given about 30 lbs of old figures cast in the 80s. A well known manufacturer told me he was tempted to offer me a price based on the weight, as a friend, but he had no clue as to the provenance of the alloy used. So he passed. |
79thPA | 11 Mar 2019 11:37 a.m. PST |
bsrlee: I thought it just meant that the wargaming gods were angry. |
14Bore | 11 Mar 2019 12:06 p.m. PST |
Recently have been stripping some of my first figures from 1981-2, using Goof Off and going to bare metal using old tooth brush then repriming. |
4th Cuirassier | 12 Mar 2019 2:45 a.m. PST |
Great explanation from bsrlee, but where does the acetate come from to begin with? Is there something you shouldn't store near lead figures? |
Winston Smith | 12 Mar 2019 8:18 a.m. PST |
Acetic acid is given off by some woods. Cedar is particularly bad, so don't store lead figures from the 70s, or home cast from tire weights, in cedar cigar boxes. I don't know if balsa wood bases were implicated in this. |
goragrad | 12 Mar 2019 10:18 a.m. PST |
Actually, the 'rot' ends up as lead carbonate. There is a reaction with CO2 and water in the air that occurs after the initial acetic acid lead reaction. The lead carbonate then reacts with water in the air to produce acetic acid and the cycle continues. At least according to the old threads on TMP. |
Winston Smith | 12 Mar 2019 8:16 p.m. PST |
Almost every figure that I had that was afflicted with Lead Rot had the corrosion occur at tha ankles of the figure. The upper portion was surprisingly unaffected. Whether this argues for the reaction starting from a cigar box storage or balsa wood basing is intriguing. And that could be why advice around that time suggested priming the whole figure, including the underside of the base, with Floquil primer, which was a green plastic sealant. Unavailable now, as far as I know. Good thing "modern" figures are not made from that crappy alloy anymore. |
GypsyComet | 12 Mar 2019 9:01 p.m. PST |
There is also a pewter rot, but its usually found in archeological excavations where the object has been exposed to water and cold for decades. Seems that tin metal has a couple of forms (allotropes) one is the familiar shiny silver form and the other is a crumbly grey mass. Seems the only 'cure' for that is to scrape away all the affected metal & keep the remaining material warm & dry. Sounds like a form of "tinpest", known to afflict some of the oldest examples on the hobby, back when they were tin. I think it also affects some older model sailing ships. The non-historical miniatures I've seen hit most often by lead rot are the short runs done "by" TSR for Star Frontiers and Gamma World. I've found these disintegrating in their original packaging. I've also had a couple old RAFM and some Ral Partha afflicted. They were stored with low quality foam padding which broke down and started the cycle, costing me some of my longest held miniatures. |