Help support TMP

"Wargaming is being destroyed by the three Worst EVILS ;-)" Topic

47 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.

Back to the Utter Drivel Message Board

Action Log

25 Feb 2019 10:03 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Changed title from "Wargameing is being destroyed by the three Worst EVILS ;-)" to "Wargaming is being destroyed by the three Worst EVILS ;-)"
  • Changed total # of posts from 4 to 3
  • Changed time from
    25 Feb 2019 9:03 a.m. PST
    25 Feb 2019 8:58 a.m. PST

Areas of Interest


Featured Hobby News Article

Featured Showcase Article

The QuarterMaster Table Top

Need 16 square feet of gaming space, built to order?

Current Poll

2,119 hits since 25 Feb 2019
©1994-2020 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

UshCha25 Feb 2019 9:33 a.m. PST

Wargaming is failing because of the three Great Evils.

1) Nobody cares any longer about the rules reflecting the real world. Where are the men that are concerned that the differences are reflected between the Powder Produced in Egypt and that In the UK. Where is the man that cares about APCBC and APC. The attention to reality is no longer there. Who is there left that cares that one gun has an effective range 2 yds further than the other?

2) Too many dice throws even when its patently absurd. Dice for how may shots when the auto loader gets even when its is incredibly repeatable and very reliable.

3) Modelers, the worst of all, who cares if the figures are not painted or are slightly different colours. Who cares if your troops are half dressed as Paras and the rest as basic grunts YOU CANT TELL AT 4 FT even at 1/72 scale.

We want accurate games not hours wasted painting and being made to feel second class citizens as we consider there is more to life and wargameing than the horrors of painting.

Its ages since there has been an EVIL contentious thread anywhere on the board. Here is as good a place to start as any. ;-).

AND DON'T EVEN get me started on the dumming down of War gameing and RADIO 4 (UK). OK That's 4 but that is just detail.

Patrick R25 Feb 2019 9:47 a.m. PST

I think it's time we tried another combination of meds.

coopman25 Feb 2019 9:58 a.m. PST

Well, that has not been my personal experience. I do agree that some people are just too lazy to paint their figures decently. At least spray them a semi-realistic base color if nothing else! If I don't feel that the rules are fairly decent, I won't play the game more than that first time. Where are you UshCha, and what game are you talking about?

pzivh43 Supporting Member of TMP25 Feb 2019 10:03 a.m. PST

USCHA is pulling our legs, of course. But that crack about semi-realistic base coat is too much!! I demand satisfaction---paintbrushes at dawn, my dear sir!

Winston Smith25 Feb 2019 10:16 a.m. PST

I'm going to just walk away from this. grin
I would be a neo-Thomist arguing in Latin with a Trotskyist arguing in Russian. Not a Trotskyite. A Trotskyist.

Carry on! grin

Private Matter25 Feb 2019 11:46 a.m. PST

This score needs to be settled! High dice wins.

Stryderg25 Feb 2019 12:05 p.m. PST

d20's at Dawn – sounds like a set of rules that need to be written.

khanscom25 Feb 2019 12:36 p.m. PST

Re: Question No. 1--

Should I give my Coldstreams a +1 for powdering their wigs with British powder?

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP25 Feb 2019 12:40 p.m. PST

Nah, proposing a better set of the Three Evils:

#1 – Not Paying Attention (NPA). I don't care what you do while it is not your turn. Talk to others. Check your phone. Teach ballroom dance to middle school children (to the extent that such activity is permissible under the Third Geneva Convention). Just be ready to play when it is your turn. Also, I don't expect you to instantly thrown down all orders in 0.03ms +/-0.05ms and to have completely digested the actions of an opponent who just finished his turn. Talk through your actions, ask questions, fine. But also don't just start reorienting yourself to what happened four seconds after the end of your last turn.

#2 – Re-in-retro-change-oops-mayI?-takseys-backseys-do-over. If you want to take back a move, fine. Gentlemen's Rules, and all that rot. No problem. If you want to rewicker your actions five times during your turn, problem.

#3 – XYZ sucks. You are entitled to your opinion. I would love to discuss the philosophy behind said opinions over cognac after the game. I would not like to hear complaints about the system we are using, the designer of said system, or the person who put all the effort into putting on the game we are playing in situ. This applies doubly for people who aren't here right now. It's awesome that XYZ sucks. You are awesome for pointing that out. However, this is the game we agreed to play, so let's play it. If we have constructive arguments for how to play the game as it rolls along, that is great to discuss. See the classic Carol Burnett/Harvey Korman sketch for complaints.

Why not the three in the OP?

1) Nobody cares any longer about the rules reflecting the real world. Whether or not 2 yards is or isn't important is a function of what is decided to be important when selecting the game. If it is important from that viewpoint, that it should be implemented; if not, not. If you don't like that viewpoint, play another game.

2) Too many dice throws even when its patently absurd. What is or isn't patently absurd is a function of what is decided to be important when selecting the game. See the above argument.

3) Modelers, the worst of all, … What is important WRT visuals is a function of selecting your group. Same argument, slightly different slant.

d20's at Dawn sounds like a set of rules that need to be written.

Dawn who? I'm game!

NWMike25 Feb 2019 1:01 p.m. PST

I admire a well painted army. I draw the line when justifiable pride crosses the line into snobbish elitism. If you try to disqualify your opponent's army because his camp followers have salmon pink knickers instead of coral pink – you might have a problem!

rustymusket25 Feb 2019 1:02 p.m. PST

What was the question?

Oppiedog25 Feb 2019 2:37 p.m. PST

Do I really need to get of bed anymore?

skippy000125 Feb 2019 2:45 p.m. PST

That's it-I'm going back to Tractics, Angriff, Janes ship rules, Chainmail, Starguard, AH games and starting over.

RudyNelson25 Feb 2019 3:15 p.m. PST

These are not sudden occupancies or trends. They have been with us forever.
Poorly painted castings or not painted, I have seen on the table since the 1960s. All primed only micro armor tanks. Primed Napoleonic in the 1970s. Nothing new or devastating.

The too many dice rolls, is one for debate. I agree that some rules take dice rolling too far. However it is not recent. In the early 1970s before the matrix system became popular, so matrix was the upstart. Most rules used bucket of dice like Tricolor and several other historical rules by TSR and others.i prefer matrix on a lot of game systems but some eras and troop levels do tend to be better with a bucket of dice.

I have complained about games versus simulations for over two decades. It is a designer and player preference. So hard to argue with.

Zephyr125 Feb 2019 3:22 p.m. PST

W.evils are a Bleeped text to get rid of…

UshCha25 Feb 2019 4:04 p.m. PST

etothepi, Those folk come under – first time shame on you, second time shame on me for accepting them again.

pzivh43, I slap you on the face with my badly painted circus freak plastic flash covered glove. So accepting your challenge provided the paint brushes are at least 10 years old, with just a few hairs that remain as they are caked in old paint (the only ones I own).

Stryderg, I only accept your challenge as its a single D20. Otherwise you would have been beneath contempt. Those using D6's must be made to see the error of their ways and repent.

Personal logo Saber6 Supporting Member of TMP Fezian25 Feb 2019 4:40 p.m. PST

Skippy, I think I've played all of those.

von Schwartz25 Feb 2019 5:44 p.m. PST

Damn, I think I got some frostbite from this thread. A little vitriol out there. A few random comments:
Tractics, Angriff, call me, I loved those rules.
Patrick yes, I agree, maybe some medical marijuana?
Coopman yes, too many lazy people out there. But the real problem is computer games. Why spend hours researching, painting, and organizing historical armies, or even fictitious ones, when with a few keystrokes you can have it done by your Mac, Apple, or PC in a matter of seconds?
pzivh43, of course he's yanking our chain, a real rabble rouser that one!
Winston, gotta love him!

Besides, everyone knows a well painted army fights better than a poorly painted one…which goes a long way in explaining my abysmal win/loss record.

Syrinx025 Feb 2019 6:12 p.m. PST

Skip, not only have we played those, we still play Tractics for our WWII battles.

HMS Exeter25 Feb 2019 7:04 p.m. PST

Skippy. My group still plays Chainmail. We'd still be playing Angriff if our eyes could still see Microarmor.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP25 Feb 2019 8:04 p.m. PST

The reference to "the dumming down of War gameing" troubles me. I thought the Geneva Accords prohibited the use of dum-dums? And who is the "Gameing" person? A cousin of Gamling's, perhaps?

Winston Smith25 Feb 2019 8:49 p.m. PST

It should be The Law on TMP that rants pass grammatic and spelling muster.
When people feel free to pick nits rather than answer your "pithy points", it detracts from your argument.
evil grin

UshCha25 Feb 2019 9:14 p.m. PST

Ha the main TMP is also dumming down, proably too many folk playing Skirmish games. The Title thread said 3 posts I make it over 20.

Kanscom, My appologies sir, respectfully it Should be +2 the damm foriners just never get the powder correct and a man cannot turn out on the battlefield not properly attired and fight well.

legatushedlius26 Feb 2019 5:49 a.m. PST

Wargaming is an excuse to paint toy soldiers. I happily paint and only game once a year.

Andy Skinner Supporting Member of TMP26 Feb 2019 7:49 a.m. PST

"See the classic Carol Burnett/Harvey Korman sketch for complaints."

You mean the power company that thinks he's dead?


Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP26 Feb 2019 8:11 a.m. PST

No, the one where Harvey opens the door for Carol and she launches a relentless feminism diatribe at him, ending in him acquiescing. As they walk through the door, Harvey asks Carol what she's there for. She says to interview with the Personnel Manager.

He says, "He's not in yet."

"What makes you think the Personnel Manager must be a man?"

"Because I am the Personnel Director."

"I guess that means I will not be getting the job."

"No, no. I have position in the Complaints Department for which I think you would be perfect."

.. the power company one is hilarious, as well.

UshCha26 Feb 2019 9:21 a.m. PST

Medical marijuana – not sure our National Heath Service are allowed to give that out. It could make me worse.

Some folk seem to have forgotten this is the UTTER DRIVEL thread. ;-).

dapeters26 Feb 2019 10:21 a.m. PST

UshCha I feel your pain.

1) Unfortunately those so called hyper simulations that have 50 pages of rules and 90% of the game is spent poring over them, is no longer fun for me.

2)You need to rule a 6 on 50 dice then a 5,6 on those and 4,5,6 on those. People like luck, but I do know some that would like to eliminate dice all together, apparently in different to what Napoleon said about plans.

3)If you feel you need to paint noses hair on your figs go for it.

TGerritsen Supporting Member of TMP26 Feb 2019 11:07 a.m. PST

What's all this drumming down of wargaming that I keep hearing about?

-Roseanne, Roseanna-Danna

YouTube link

Zephyr126 Feb 2019 3:23 p.m. PST

"3)If you feel you need to paint noses hair on your figs go for it."

I've heard that micro-flock is more realistic… ;-)

Personal logo Bashytubits Supporting Member of TMP26 Feb 2019 3:23 p.m. PST

Just consider this to be a "sign" of the times…..

von Schwartz26 Feb 2019 5:45 p.m. PST

I second KPinder's remarks as well as legatushedlius, old timers like me. Paint, paint, paint 364 days a year, game on the 365th.

Now, the rest of you hush up, I need to ask Winston where he gets his army lists from.

PS, yes there appeared to a singular hiccup on the system last evening. The title page said 3 messages on the thread when there were in fact over 20 at that time. Also, I tried to enter one of my usual pithy and very witty comments and when I hit "Submit" it went to an 'error' page. I thought that Bill was getting his revenge for my earlier editorial comments re: TMP POLLS.

Mmmmm, Tacos!!!!

Legion 427 Feb 2019 7:31 a.m. PST

They will take my minis when they pry them from my cold dead hands … knife

Did someone say tacos ?!?! evil grin

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Feb 2019 6:26 a.m. PST

Just to be clear, is that you mini tacos that they will pry from your cold, dead hands?

von Schwartz28 Feb 2019 1:26 p.m. PST

Of course!

Legion 401 Mar 2019 8:32 a.m. PST

Toy soldiers, tacos, burritos, etc., etc. … It all works for me ! evil grin

Volleyfire01 Mar 2019 9:29 a.m. PST

3)If you feel you need to paint noses hair on your figs go for it.
I mis-read this.I thought it said feel free to paint the nose hairs on your figs. Now that's what I call detail.

von Schwartz01 Mar 2019 6:04 p.m. PST

That's why we need to use punctuation!

Winston, I thought you were the one so high on proper grammar!

Legion 402 Mar 2019 9:01 a.m. PST

Not nose hairs … but all I do is 6mm. I do try to come close … evil grin Some of my 6mm "Rat" Snipers, they are only about 4mm … wink


von Schwartz02 Mar 2019 6:15 p.m. PST

What size magnifying glass do you use?

I had to stop doing Micro-armor when I couldn't tell the difference between a M48 and a M60 at 6 feet.

Personal logo Bashytubits Supporting Member of TMP02 Mar 2019 10:18 p.m. PST

You know Legion 4, if your guys would trim their hairs it wouldn't build up and explode out of the tops of their heads.

Oh, I also found your hair model, just wanted to return him to you.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP03 Mar 2019 7:40 a.m. PST

I thought I was your hair model …



Legion 403 Mar 2019 9:16 a.m. PST

What size magnifying glass do you use?
I use powerful glasses and a flip down optivisor. And take them both off as soon as I am done … Otherwise I can't even see clear enough to walk ! evil grin

You know Legion 4, if your guys would trim their hairs it wouldn't build up and explode out of the tops of their heads

hair model …
These guys all got beards !


My version of a ghillie suit/camo cape …



von Schwartz03 Mar 2019 6:12 p.m. PST

I used to trim my hair, worked for a while too. I hit 55 and it backfired, started exploding out everywhere, back, ears, nose, my feet are starting to look like a Hobbit's.

I never lost my hair, I just misplaced it temporarily.

Covert Walrus21 Apr 2019 1:03 p.m. PST

Can't disagree about the dice rolls, myself. I don't have problems with buckets of dice in one throw, but a constant roll to hit, then roll for effect, then roll for area of hit, then saving throw . . . Soem rules pile dice up like Ossa upon Helion.

I know it's a joke, but still, there's truth in wit.

von Schwartz21 Apr 2019 6:28 p.m. PST

That is why we all so damn witty!

Old Wolfman22 Apr 2019 7:07 a.m. PST

"I know,I heard you roar." ;^)

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.