"Other WWII Tank Skirmish Rules?" Topic
25 Posts
All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.
Please don't make fun of others' membernames.
For more information, see the TMP FAQ.
Back to the WWII Rules Message Board
Action Log
16 Feb 2019 6:44 a.m. PST by Editor in Chief Bill
- Removed from WWII Discussion board
Areas of InterestWorld War Two on the Land
Featured Hobby News Article
Featured Link
Top-Rated Ruleset
Featured Showcase Article
Featured Workbench ArticleWhen you have several hundred Marines that need painting, who do you call?
Featured Profile Article
Featured Book Review
|
Thresher01 | 16 Feb 2019 12:06 a.m. PST |
I see What a Tanker is getting a lot of press of late, and quite a bit of tabletop use as well, based upon various battle reports I've seen. Sounds like there may be a 2nd release, and/or supplement publication that may contain rules for anti-tank guns and infantry as well. In the interim though, what other 1:1 armored unit skirmish rules are out there, that people are using for their games (e.g. where one real vehicle = one model on the tabletop, for unit deployment numbers)? Would love to hear what you are using, and what you like and dislike about the rules systems. |
Fred Cartwright | 16 Feb 2019 2:31 a.m. PST |
Warlord has Tank War. Don't know how popular it is. Then there is Gale Force 9's Tanks with both WW 2 and modern versions. Personally I use whatever full set of rules I normally game with. Currently Iron Cross or PBI. |
UshCha | 16 Feb 2019 3:45 a.m. PST |
No reason you can't use Maneouvre Group as is. Not too much detail but fine for say a company of tanks on each side. Usual warning our rules are classed as complex rules as like my grandkids you have to turn turrets to shoot (Saying BANG is not mandatory for those over 7 years old). With tweaks we have done upto 50 tanks and multi player but really you need a bit more than an evening. |
Garryowen | 16 Feb 2019 6:04 a.m. PST |
Nuts by Two Hour Wargames is one model equals one real vehicle and one figure equals one man. Great rules. Tom |
redbanner4145 | 16 Feb 2019 6:29 a.m. PST |
Battleground WWII Tanker's Challenge |
Extra Crispy | 16 Feb 2019 7:18 a.m. PST |
I think you need to narrow down your question. I think what you want to ask is: what other games out there are designed for players to run just 1 or 2 tanks? Each tank in this game has a dashboard for keeping track of everything like fuel, ammo, damage or whatever. If you are really asking what rules are 1:1 for tanks, that list is really, really long. |
JMcCarroll | 16 Feb 2019 9:45 a.m. PST |
If looking for armor detailed rules. Use Tank Charts, yes it is old, but few rules are as detailed. |
coopman | 16 Feb 2019 11:29 a.m. PST |
|
Thresher01 | 16 Feb 2019 1:48 p.m. PST |
Thanks for all the replies and recommendations. My original intent was about rules for tank vs. tank skirmishes like are done with the "What a Tanker" rules, with each player controlling 1 – 3 tanks or so, depending upon the scenario and length of time available for the game, and where each miniature on the table represents one vehicle. Rules for movement, turret turning speeds in degrees (differentiating different speeds for various vehicles, as in real life, depending upon whether they had powered turrets, powered assist, or hand-cranked one), sighting in, ammo selection, firing to hit, etc. are to be expected, I think. Would like fairly "realistic" rules for armor penetration and damage, if available. Let's call these "tank skirmish" rules, for clarity. I'm also interested in other rules that are perhaps a bit less complex, that permit each player to control a platoon to a company of vehicles, and where there is a good differentiation between tank types, as far as their various attributes go, e.g. gun types, ranges and armor penetration, perhaps ammo options for AP/HEAT rounds (definitely including HE and smoke too for dealing with infantry and A/T guns), armor, movement speeds, etc.. Fairly quick, but "realistic" resolution of the armor penetration and damage to vehicles would be nice. Let's call the latter "tank platoon/company commander" rules for clarity. I'd like both to have rules for dealing with infantry and A/T guns, and other targets. While I'm at it, anyone know if the rumors of a 2nd release of "What a Tanker" are true, and if they will include infantry and A/T guns in them? Rumors are the typical releases come out around Easter. I'm fine with either troops being represented by a single men , at a 1:1 ratio (probably makes the most sense in the former), small fire team (2 – 5 troops to a base), or a full squad per stand. Fire teams could probably go with either type of game as listed above, and the squads would probably make the most sense with the "tank platoon+" set of rules. Small groups, or individual tank hunters armed with various anti-tank weapons could be used with either type of rules set, e.g. – anti-tank mines, magnetic mines, satchel charges, molotov cocktails, sticky bombs, PIATs, bazookas, RPGs, panzerfausts, and panzerschrecks. I thought "Tanks" might fit the bill, but reading about them, they're a bit too simple for my taste. |
Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy | 16 Feb 2019 4:05 p.m. PST |
NUTS – Individual Tanks plus each crew member has a job to perform. Allows for quick combat with a realistic feel. Each tank has a Tank Commander, Gunner, Loader, Driver and some a Radio operator. Makes them individual and different, not just the T-34 fires with a 6. All with 2d6 and easy to memorize tables. Here's a step by step how to. link link Bigger battles? NUTS Big Battles link |
Lee494 | 16 Feb 2019 8:18 p.m. PST |
My rules, Combat Action Command (CAC) gives you finely detailed differences between AFV types and are scaled 1 to 1 for tanks and 2-5 man Fire Teams for troops. There is a wide variation in types of troops and tanks with weapons such as the German 75mm L/43 having different stats than the L/48. My website has CAC Lite a free PDF download you can "test drive". Cheers! Www.actionsrules.com |
Pizzagrenadier | 16 Feb 2019 8:36 p.m. PST |
Disposable Heroes II is a platoon level infantry, vehicles, and support weapon rules set that doubles as a stand alone tank skirmish game. This was not just bolted on either, the vehicle system really does stand on its own and is very comprehensive. Vehicle speeds, armor, and weapon penetrations as well as target acquisition and crew quality are all built into the system and allow for games where each player is controlling one to five tanks. If you're interested in tank skirmishes but also want to include infantry and AT guns and other aspects at this level, that's already included. Here's a blog post of just the kind of game you're looking for using 15mm tanks on the eastern front. link |
Sundance | 16 Feb 2019 9:00 p.m. PST |
I always put in a plus for Tigers & Stalins. The combat resolution system is very elegant. Beautiful little game. |
Walking Sailor | 17 Feb 2019 9:10 a.m. PST |
The most detailed set of rules that I ever saw is "Face of Battle" thefaceofbattle.com It's been a while but if I remember correctly: Each man (PBI & Vehicle crew) has 2 action cards. Each squad leader and vehicle commander has 1 or 2 command cards to give another action to his troops/crew. Each vehicle has 1 movement card per 1mph (and action cards to change speed?). Each round that strikes, and penetrates, is then checked for the number of "hits". (It took me some time to realize that they meant "fragments".) These are then individually followed through the interior. No where near real time, but you can't beat the detail. |
Ney Ney | 17 Feb 2019 12:00 p.m. PST |
I not seen this mentioned yet but I like Iron Cross. Does infantry and at guns as well but I enjoy tank v tank fights. Not very complex but I thought worked well. |
Wolfhag | 17 Feb 2019 1:20 p.m. PST |
Thresher, The level of detail your looking for will most likely be with games that use data cards and charts, not simple dice mechanics. This will take more time but will give you a better idea of the weapons interactions and ability to use real military tactics. For me, the time scale is one of the most important factors in a 1:1 tank skirmish. When you have a game turn equal to 90 seconds that could encompass a single tank realistically firing 5-10 times and a vehicle moving at 24kph moving 300-350 meters into and out of LOS numerous times. You need a healthy amount of abstraction and rules for initiative, reaction, activations, rule exceptions and special rules for overwatch and opportunity fire to make it playable. For me, that complicates the game. However, for many players the minutia of the game activations, initiative determination, options and decisions are what they like best. Personally, I like games that use some type of Action Timing but I'm in the minority. An interactive way to synchronize the timing between all units eliminates the need for initiative, traditional IGYG and activation rules. There is also less record keeping to track units that have already reacted, fired, issued an order, etc for a turn. Battleground WWII's use of Actions and a turn that is the amount of time for a rifleman to fire twice while under fire, I guess about 10-15 seconds so it should give a good interaction. Some games like Panzer War and Panzer allow multiple targets to be engaged in a single turn based on how well the first shot die roll was. If you want good detail for gunfire-armor interaction and hit location that limits it to a smaller number of games. Most of the popular ones have a somewhat abstracted gunnery system based on the type of dice. The better ones have used formulas to get more detailed and historic performance. I'm familiar or have: Battleground WWII, Mein Panzer, Micro Melee / Final Combat, Panzer War (free), Panzer, Tank Charts (out of print but there is a Facebook group and I have all of the updated charts), Tractics, Firefly, Combined Arms, GHQ Micro Armor (free), Advanced Tobruk system, Schwere Kompanie Light, Squad Leader in Miniatures (SLM), Panzer III, Prowling Panthers (good gunnery system and hit location/damage). Combat Action Command is worth a look too but I don't have a copy. If you are looking for the most historical portrayal of gunnery, penetration and armor/aspects I'd recommend Panzer War but it may take a while to come up to speed on all of the features. Prowling Panthers is another recommendation as it is basically a more playable version of Tractics (I can get you a copy). Mein Panzer and Battleground WWII should be to your liking. Panzer from GMT is going to have all of the combined arms units and bells and whistles you'd want but is pretty rule and chart intensive and expensive. The Disposable Heroes system is one you should like too, I like the rules layout and data cards. Chain Reaction and Nuts! Have a pretty good reaction rules but Nuts! is not detailed for tank-tank. Maneouver Group has an interesting way of activating units that has some good head-to-head strategy that other games don't have. If you like a game that has a role playing aspect to the tank crew Nuts! has that. CoC has good data cards. In a tank-tank engagement one of the most important aspects of getting off the first shot are tactical deployment (over watch, knowing where the enemy will be, ambush), situational awareness (good crews, radio communication, unbuttoned, good FoV) and weapons platform performance (turret traverse speed and rate of fire). Better crews perform actions quicker and are able to get inside their opponents OODA Decision Loop with all other things being equal but that's hard to recreate without some type of action timing. Most games using some type of unit activation or IGYG abstract these factors to a large degree. Finding a game that has a time scale and turn sequence, reaction/activation you'll be comfortable with will most likely be harder than finding the game with the hard data you like. This is by no means a comprehensive list, just my opinions, and observations and some games that I have or are familiar with. Wolfhag |
Marc33594 | 17 Feb 2019 2:53 p.m. PST |
Another possibility is to look at the boardgame "Patton's Best". link There is a link on that page to download a pdf of the rules. Lots of interesting concepts there. There is also "Open Fire" which is like "Ambush!" with tanks ; link |
Thresher01 | 17 Feb 2019 7:10 p.m. PST |
Hmmmm, lots to check out, and/or try. Thanks for all the suggestions. Wolfhag, glad you replied too. I'm interested in your rules as well, so send me a note, and/or post here about their availability for sale. Can't recall if they were for just tank on tank actions, or if you have rules for anti-tank guns, infantry, and artillery too. I can be reached at: rkentjr AT hotmail (D0T) [c o m] |
Wolfhag | 18 Feb 2019 11:38 a.m. PST |
Thresher, Here is an image of the different game features, sorry if it is a little fuzzy:
Your timing is good. I'm pretty much finished the development of the game and balancing the details and playability and data card design (what a pain that was). I just need to make a few videos before I send the free demo stuff out. The data cards are pretty intensive and need some help in navigating them. I did the best I could and I'm open to constructive ideas. Reaction and Action Timing: Each game turn is 1 second. As each turn # is announced all units scheduled to perform an action (Action Turn) do so. If there are no actions then the next turn is announced, etc. Units will normally shoot every 5-15 turns (engaging a new target takes longer) so there is a pretty historical rate of fire created in the game. Every 5th turn moving units are moved the distance of their movement markers (20-70 meters depending on their speed). This means they may have moved out of the LOS before they can be fired at. Units react to any enemy activity in their LOS on the turn it occurs, then roll a D20 to determine how long it takes to shoot/move (Action Timing on the data card). You can always cancel an order to engage a new threat unless it is in your blind arc. When your Action Turn is announced you execute your order and immediately decide on a new one (no orders phase). That's basically how the game flows with each turn announced sequentially. It's actually really simple, some people just over complicate it. I can do two-page rules because I don't have to explain things like activations, overwatch, opportunity fire, initiative, etc. The Action Timing and the sequential game turns takes care of all of those aspects without special rules. You can "interrupt" an opponent only if you are quicker than him. Seconds really do count! I have rules and data cards for three versions: Free Intro/Demo game: Two-page rules (one paper, two sides), one side data card for each vehicle and play aids (movement markers and unit Action Time tracking). Abstracted but variable engagement time (combined and abstracted Situational Awareness, turret rotation and aim time), crew timing differences (OODA Loop)and crew accuracy differences. Good for large games and solitaire. All D20 rolls with very few modifiers to worry about. A 5% chance when firing of a malfunction (crew fumble, jam, misfire, etc) that will delay the next action by 1-20 turns/seconds. Nothing is guaranteed and the Fog of War is a bitch in this game mainly because it throws off your timing allowing your enemy to get inside your OODA Loop and force you to react to his actions. You don't want that to happen. The basic and advanced game go into more detail mainly by giving the player more timing options (Risk-Reward Decisions) and more detail on Situational Awareness (delays), historical turret traverse time and variable aim time (Battlesight, Burst on Target, Snap Shot, Rapid Fire). It's no more complicated than adding 2-3 die roll modifiers. Give me a few days to get this out to you. Wolfhag |
Verily | 18 Feb 2019 2:07 p.m. PST |
Hi Wolfhag, at what level is Treadheads pitched at? ie is it company (where infantry is squad based) or platoon (where infantry is 1 figure = 1 man). I'm tending to think that most games with decent tank rules are pitched at company level. The one exception I've found is Disposable Heroes which it as platoon level but still retaining detailed tank rules. |
Wolfhag | 18 Feb 2019 11:01 p.m. PST |
Verily, The largest game I ran was a N. Africa Hellfire Pass scenario with a total of 9 players each with 4-6 tanks plus 4x50mm ATG and 2x88mm ATG using 1/72 scale models. With the simultaneous movement of models every 5th turn, it really speeds up the game with multi-players. I'd say a reinforced Company would be about the max for one player. I have seen new first time players run 12 tanks by themselves. I've run solitaire games with 25-30 tanks per side, no infantry. Once you get a grasp on the system and are familiar with the tank you are running it only takes 5-10 seconds to determine your next Action Turn and you are not holding up the game. Personally, I'm a 6mm and 10mm player and play 1" = 25m. With the 28mm we did 1" = 2.5 meters on a 12-foot table. Since all of the measurements on the data cards are in meters you can use any scale, you just need movement markers to the scale you are using. We've played infantry with all scales. Personally, I think section/fire team stands work best because it allows squads to perform Fire & Maneuver. It gets too complicated with 28mm 1:1 because players find it hard to keep teams together, they are always wanting figures to be doing different things. I was infantry so I can relate best to the squad tactics using 2-3 fire teams but depending on the level of tactics you want to use squad would work I just have not tried it yet. Wolfhag |
NKL AeroTom | 19 Feb 2019 5:19 a.m. PST |
Ostfront was originally designed for simple yet effective tank skirmishes, you could easily resort it to that by ignoring infantry, artillery and so on. |
Rabelais | 21 Feb 2019 12:21 p.m. PST |
We had a brief go at playing Buck Surdu's 'Combat Patrol' with just a few tanks a side. Might need a bit of tweaking for a purely tank-on-tank game, but it seemed promising. |
Thresher01 | 22 Feb 2019 12:15 a.m. PST |
Hey Wolfhag, I'm also interested in the streamlined version of Tractics you mentioned, e.g. "Prowling Panthers". |
Wolfhag | 27 Feb 2019 2:52 a.m. PST |
Thresher01, You should be hearing from the guy with a copy of "Prowling Panzers" (oops, not Panthers). He runs games in the Chicago area with one of the developers that worked on Tractics. I should have mine ready any day. I didn't like some of the printouts so I'm making revisions. Here are some samples and research for the game on Pinterest: link Wolfhag |
|