"untrained elephants at Zama?" Topic
9 Posts
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| MichaelCollinsHimself | 08 Feb 2019 5:45 a.m. PST |
Can anyone tell me who it was suggested that Hannibal`s elephants at the battle of Zama were untrained or inexperienced? TIA, Mike. |
| Musketballs | 08 Feb 2019 8:09 a.m. PST |
Don't know how much this helps, but it was Livy who supplied the detail of many elephants fleeing just from the noise of battle, with only a few breaking through the Velites and reaching the main Roman line. |
| MichaelCollinsHimself | 08 Feb 2019 8:54 a.m. PST |
Yeah thanks Musketballs,
I know I`ve seen it in Richard A. Gabriel`s books on Hannibal and Scipio (2008/2011), but I wondered if it was his or an earlier historian`s theory.
I also remember it being included in that Hannibal movie with Alexander Siddig in 2006. |
| Grunt1861 | 08 Feb 2019 8:54 a.m. PST |
Not only were Hannibal's elephants untrained, but a large portion of his army as well. Thus the reason Hannibal attempted to broker a peace treaty with Scipio before the battle. Hannibal needed more time to get his army ready to fight. Unfortunately for Hannibal and the Carthaginians, Scipio knew this. |
| MichaelCollinsHimself | 08 Feb 2019 8:56 a.m. PST |
Right so, who was it that first said that the elephants were untrained? |
| GurKhan | 08 Feb 2019 9:36 a.m. PST |
I think the view that they were untrained may have arisen from Polybios' statement (XV.16.2) that Hannibal had collected the elephants "hastily". There's a discussion in the thread at link – although it starts off on a different subject – but we didn't really find out who first floated the "untrained" idea. |
| MichaelCollinsHimself | 09 Feb 2019 9:40 a.m. PST |
My mistake… just watched the Hannibal movie – the screen-writer just has Hannibal say that he has "an army of raw, untrained recruits" to fight at Zama. YouTube link |
| markdienekes | 27 Feb 2019 7:12 a.m. PST |
The main thinking is if they had a trained elephant core, why hadn't they been used in one of the numerous battles in Africa before Hannibal returned to Africa? |
| MichaelCollinsHimself | 03 Apr 2019 9:34 a.m. PST |
Interesting question Mark.
It depends on who you wish to believe.
Polybius does not mention elephants at the battles of Utica or the Great Plains, but Livy gives elephant losses for this part of the war = 14.
Polybius saves 80 of them for Hannibal at the battle of Zama alone it would appear.
Appian says that Hasdrubal had 140 elephants, but he does not mention the battle of the Great Plains at all. |
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