redcoat | 05 Feb 2019 6:55 a.m. PST |
Hi all, Might anyone please help? I believe the Hurricane was entering service from Dec. 1937, and the Spitfire from August 1938. But at the time of the Munich Crisis (roughly summer to late September '38), what would have been the RAF's main fighter plane, in terms of *numbers*? Would it still have been the Gloucester Gladiator? Thanks all, in advance, for any contributions! |
20thmaine | 05 Feb 2019 7:22 a.m. PST |
1938 – Hawker Fury. MkII entered service 1936-7, phased out from 1939 (replaced by Gladiators initially) |
khanscom | 05 Feb 2019 7:33 a.m. PST |
Per C. Bowyer "British Military Aircraft": 5 squadrons received Hawker Fury IIs in 1936- 37; some of these were certainly still in service during the Munich Crisis. I recall an article in Scale Aviation Modeler Int. (IIRC)that illustrated these in camouflage. Gloster Gauntlet was in service with 14 squadrons by May 1937. The first Gloster Gladiator squadron was operational in February 1937. First Hawker Hurricanes were received in January 1938. First Spitfires entered service with No. 19 Squadron in August 1938. Hope this helps a little. |
redcoat | 05 Feb 2019 8:12 a.m. PST |
Oh my goodness, that's so helpful. thanks chaps, so much. In a nutshell, I am assuming the the principal shortcoming of such British biplanes, when compared to the new generation of monoplanes like the Bf109 and Spitfire, was speed and armament. |
Grunt1861 | 05 Feb 2019 8:19 a.m. PST |
The Gloster Gauntlet was a British single-seat biplane fighter of the RAF, designed and built by Gloster Aircraft in the 1930s. It was the last RAF fighter to have an open cockpit and the penultimate biplane fighter in service. "Yeah, Mate you're going to have to engage the Messerschmidt's today. Here's your umbrella." |
HMS Exeter | 05 Feb 2019 9:35 a.m. PST |
It's easy to assume that the low wing monoplane had it all over their biplane predecessors. The monos were actually introduced to give air forces aircraft that could match the speeds of the latest generation twin engine bombers. It bears remembering that the "lumbering" He111 was originally a damned swift little beastie before the Luft started loading everything on except the kitchen sink. The monos were better armed (generally) than the biplanes, but this was more a function of the steady MG/cannon arms race. The Japanese Oscar was the primo Jpn Army fighter of WWII thru 1945, yet it was never armed with more than 2 50 cals. The monos were faster, but the biplanes were more maneuverable, and had (generally) better climb rates. In 1940 the Brits took Gladiators and Hurricanes against Cr32 and Cr42 biplanes, and the Iti's gave a creditable accounting of themselves. One flight of the 3rd RAAF was issued Gauntlets in 1940 in Egypt, for want of any other machines. The Aussies practiced using the planes as ground attack aircraft. They took to calling their Gauntlets, "the answer to the Stuka." Pilot quality is always the principle issue, of course. 10% of pilots accounted to 90% of air to air kills. The biplanes ended up being phased out not so much because of some inherent tactical inferiority, but because the mono's speed enabled them to fulfill strategic needs the biplanes could not. |
emckinney | 05 Feb 2019 9:38 a.m. PST |
Speed. Speed, speed, speed. And armament. Keep in mind that the Bf109D was vastly inferior to the E model. The engine change increased power by about 50% and the D-0 and D-1 only carried 4 rifle-caliber MGs, the same as the Gladiator. The 109Ds got beat up during the Phoney War, giving the Armee de l'Air a false sense of security. |
Old Contemptibles | 05 Feb 2019 10:18 a.m. PST |
Hurricane Been reading Horne's "To Lose A Battle: France 1940" and it is all about the Hurricane. Never says anything about the Spitfire. Apparently the Spitfires were being hoarded for the eventual Battle of Britain. |
Aethelflaeda was framed | 05 Feb 2019 1:06 p.m. PST |
Interesting about the mg/cannon aspect. Early Spits had .303 mgs because of French design "assistance"that delayed an earlier deployment. Iirc this was one of the readiness issues in the back of chamberlain's mind when he had to appease, rather than confront, Hitler. |
Onomarchos | 05 Feb 2019 3:18 p.m. PST |
And remember that the Arado Ar-68E was the most numerous German fighter in 1938. |
khanscom | 05 Feb 2019 3:35 p.m. PST |
I'd not heard of any French involvement in the Spitfire design; testing of the effectiveness of 8x .303 battery was completed during design of the Hurricane, and was chosen over .5" Vickers (excessively heavy even though the striking power of an individual .5 round would be greater than that of a .303) or the 20mm Hispano (still experimental). Delays were most likely due to the fact that it required more than 2 1/2x the labor hours to produce a Spitfire than a Hurricane, and the limited production capacity of Supermarine. |
emckinney | 05 Feb 2019 3:58 p.m. PST |
"Been reading Horne's "To Lose A Battle: France 1940" and it is all about the Hurricane. Never says anything about the Spitfire. Apparently the Spitfires were being hoarded for the eventual Battle of Britain." Avoid this book. Too much of it is dead wrong, the research was far too dependent on British sources, and many of the assertions and conclusions are no longer supportable. It's just plain dated. Obviously, Karl-Heinz Frieser's "The Blitzkrieg Legend: The 1940 Campaign in the West" is most prominent of the recent works and is the essential starting point. However, I won't go anywhere without Robert Forczyk's "Case Red: The Collapse of France." It's been well-known for a while that the French army has been mis-characterized in the history of the campaign. Forczyk pulls these these threads together and provides both a view of doctrine and concrete examples to show that the French weren't so hamstrung by Methodical Battle as they've been portrayed. In particular, the French first-line divisions showed great skill at hasty attacks, far more than would seem likely, given the training levels. I disagree with some of Forczyk's conclusions about the French air force and about Britain's decision to hold back almost the entire RAF from the fighting in France until it was far too late. One of Forczyk's most valuable contributions is his demonstration of just how much money the French lit on fire by spending it on their navy … |
Aethelflaeda was framed | 05 Feb 2019 4:16 p.m. PST |
The Hispano cannon were French designs built under license in Britain. lots of problems initially with the cannons. |
20thmaine | 05 Feb 2019 6:33 p.m. PST |
The Gloster Gladiator pretty much represents the pinnacle of biplane development. Quite a plane in its day: enclosed cockpit, 250mph top speed (50mph improvement on the Gauntlet!). |
Aethelflaeda was framed | 06 Feb 2019 2:35 p.m. PST |
Surprised no mention of Defiants. Not a particularly successful fighter but a decent interceptor at the time. 1000 or so made. |
20thmaine | 06 Feb 2019 3:56 p.m. PST |
It didn't enter service until 1939, and the OP did ask about 1938. Do wonder what would have happened if they'd sacrificed some fuel and put in forward firing guns as well (like Bouton Paul apparently wanted to). You lose range (obviously) but now it's a lot harder to attack. |
Aethelflaeda was framed | 06 Feb 2019 6:13 p.m. PST |
Ah, entered service in 39 even though first flight was 37. The Hotspur had a single forward firing gun and the 4 gun turret. |
Blutarski | 07 Feb 2019 9:10 a.m. PST |
+1 emckinney – Forczyk is IMO an under-appreciated military historian. I was very impressed by his book on the Crimean campaign in WW2. Spitfire footnote – the very earliest Spitfire models lacked constant speed propellers. There was also a lack of high-octane aviation fuel which restricted s/c boost level, hence max engine power output. B |